New York Knicks 106, Phoenix Suns 99 — More of the same

Posted by on December 2nd, 4:06 pm

After a three-game respite, the Phoenix Suns played to the script they have followed most of the season by getting down big early before fighting back and ultimately falling short thanks to far too many turnovers and a barrage of New York threes on Sunday morning.

However, the end result in this 106-99 loss to the Knicks was as frustrating as it was predictable for a Suns team that committed 17 turnovers (including nine in the first quarter) to the Knicks’ seven and allowed New York to bomb away from distance (12-for-29, 41.4 percent) as Carmelo Anthony and Steve Novak hit four treys apiece and Raymond Felton three.

“We started the game with too many turnovers,” Suns head coach Alvin Gentry told reporters. “We turned it over seven out of our first 15 possessions and they immediately got separation. We’re battling uphill from there. Our handling the ball, whenever we turn it over like that, it puts them out in the break and then transitions. They have shooters that spread the floor. It puts you in a bind.”

Starting the game with too many turnovers and giving their opponent immediate separation has been a recurring theme that the Suns just can’t seem to break.

Phoenix never led in this contest, but the Knicks got out to a 20-point lead just before halftime and maintained a 17-point advantage at the end of three quarters. That’s when the Suns made their move with a 13-2 run fueled by eight points from Sebastian Telfair to make this a six-point game with 6:55 to play.

Tyson Chandler scored on a follow of a Felton penetration and after that the Melo/Felton duo took over by scoring the rest of their team’s points before free throws at the end when the Suns were forced to foul to stop the clock. That pair combined to score 10 points to keep the Suns at bay in this time, as by the time Phoenix cut the lead to four with 29.3 seconds left on a Shannon Brown driving layup, their only chance at victory involved New York choking at the line.

Anthony (34 points, six boards) and Felton (23 points on 10-for-17 shooting to go with seven assists) were the offensive stars all day for a Knicks team that let the Suns back in the game but never felt seriously threatened.

“We have to stop digging ourselves into a hole,” Michael Beasley said. “When you get down 15, 20 points you need a perfect storm to come back, and I feel like we are relying on that perfect storm in too many games. If we play our system and the effort we gave in the end there is no reason we can’t win games. If we dig ourselves into a hole and then the effort comes out we can’t win games.”

What Beasley’s not saying is that he’s part of the problem in having such a hole dug in the first place. He did not play during the furious fourth-quarter rally, but in the 21 minutes he did play the team lost 20 points. Goran Dragic’s -11 makes him the next closest Sun in this statistic.

This has been a season-long trend as the Suns are nearly 21 points per 100 possessions better when Beasley sits than when he plays, according to the NBA’s stats tool. Almost all of this difference comes at the defensive end, as the Suns possess a superb 95.0 defensive rating when he sits and an abysmal 114.7 rating when he plays.

To put that in perspective, the Suns without Beasley would be the best defensive team in the NBA but they are the worst by seven points per 100 possessions when he’s on the floor, which is a pretty wide margin that covers the difference between the No. 11 and No. 30 defensive teams in the league.

Marcin Gortat put in one of his better performances with 18 points and 10 boards on 8-for-11 shooting in 41:23 with Jermaine O’Neal sitting this one out with a strained right quad. He took full advantage of that and perhaps should have gotten the ball even more often. Although it was often a power forward like Markieff Morris with a smaller defender on him when the Knicks went small, Phoenix never could capitalize on that size advantage all game.

Shannon Brown hardly made a whimper in the first half, but exploded for 17 points in the second half. He’s always been a microwave guy on offense, and he caught fire during a 13-point third-quarter explosion that kept this game from being a laugher at that point.

Goran Dragic failed to score in double figures for the first time all season, finishing with nine points on 4-for-9 shooting. Because Telfair was so good to start the fourth, Dragic did not play a second in that period and the fact that he logged just 26:28 for the game is the biggest reason he did not tally double digits.

I’m all for riding the hot hand, but at some point I feel Gentry needed to go back to The Dragon in the fourth. He’s just a bigger scoring threat than Telfair, and the Suns needed him out there down the stretch. If you really want Telfair in, play both of them in a small ball lineup like the Suns did at the end of the second quarter with the two point guards flanked by Brown, Tucker at the four to guard Melo and Gortat.

The loss to the Knicks, who remained undefeated at home, dropped the Suns to 1-4 on this treacherous road trip and 2-8 away from US Airways Center overall. This was not a game the Suns could have reasonably expected to win, and perhaps this is a pattern we just need to expect to become the norm this season when the Suns face playoff teams.

And 1

Congratulations to @Dorie_says for winning our ValleyoftheSuns-Crowd Seats ticket giveaway. Dorie predicted the Suns to lose to the Knicks by a score of 105-98, and amazingly she was only one point off on both counts.

Michael Schwartz founded ValleyoftheSuns in October 2008 and is the owner/editor emeritus of the site. He is currently working toward his MBA in sports business at San Diego State University.

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Tags: New York Knicks · Phoenix Suns · Phoenix Suns Recap

84 responses so far ↓

  • 1 Harry // Dec 2, 2012 at 4:47 pm

    Can anyone explain why Beasley is still starting? This might sound mean but I wish he’d get injured for about 10 games.

  • 2 bill.thomas // Dec 2, 2012 at 5:45 pm

    Wow, sounds like they need to work with Beasley very intensively on his defensive skills. Those are some very hard-to-believe stats. They could easily be a career-killing. With him I wonder if its a lack of effort or a lack of proper technique, or both.

  • 3 Dan Smith // Dec 2, 2012 at 6:22 pm

    I agree with Harry about Beasley starting, but damn that’s way to0 harsh dude to wish an injury! I was thinking bringing in Scola at power and let Markief play small a la Lakers how they use to go big with Bynum, Gasol and Odom, but I think Morris is too inadequate to defend at the position or drive…and we definitely don’t want him to rely on a streaky jumper every game, lol. I just thought there could be some move to try Beasley at Power Forward off the bench, let him take it to the reserves at the position he’s better at. I read articles before the season started saying he’s simply not good at SF, and I think that’s where the problem is. Not to mention Dudley I think plays better at SF instead of SG also.

  • 4 Fan in Chi Town // Dec 2, 2012 at 6:26 pm

    I just do not understand why Dragic is splitting so much time with Telfair. Dragic is averaging 31.9 minutes a game and had 26 today. Does Gentry not trust Dragic? Does he know something we dont? I know some people have been saying Dragic seems tired and can’t finish games, but this is a guy who is the consensus all around best player on the team. I just don’t understand why he’s averaging less minutes than an old Nash last year.

  • 5 Dan Smith // Dec 2, 2012 at 6:29 pm

    I really believe our roster is simply not made up correctly. Too many streaky, erratic shooters and guys playing out of position. That’s a major problem, seems like every night there are different guys struggling, no one is consistent. Beasley, Morris, Bassy and Brown being the worst offenders. But the more experienced guys like Gortat, Scola Dudley and Dragic are even inconsistent. Dragic has been the best in that area, but even his jump shot can disappear at times. Don’t think I’ve seen a team struggle so much with simply knocking down open shots.

  • 6 Scott // Dec 2, 2012 at 8:01 pm

    @Fan -

    A few years back, Gentry put Dragic out on the court for month after month with players who couldn’t get the job done, and he held Dragic responsible for the performance of that unit. Consequently, Dragic was traded, even though none of the other PGs could do a better job with that unit than Dragic.

    This same thing could be happening again. I wouldn’t be surprised if Gentry begins starting Telfair over Dragic, and I wouldn’t be surprised if the Suns trade Dragic midseason for a “better” player.

    Blanks needs to go before that happens.

    Hopefully Babby won’t say something about the situation, like: “Of course we fully support Dragic. He’s the cornerstone of our franchise for the future.” Because that will surely indicate the opposite. ;)

  • 7 shazam // Dec 2, 2012 at 9:16 pm

    for those who dont understand the strategy the suns are using to rebuild..it goes like this..first they hoped one of their cheap gambles would pay off i.e., beas or johnson that hasnt happened so now they are looking around to see if they can steal a star(they wont pay much..remember the eric gordon thing was a fan con…they knew they were never going to get him)..if they cant steal some one then they hope for a good draft pick..next year they make more small budget gambles to start the process over again until finally a star emerges….THEN they will build around that star…every move they make is based on 3 simple tenants ..draft,steal and low budget gambles….hardin would be a sun right now if they could have stolen him…as suns fans we need a great draft pick or a gamble to go good…steals are hard to come by

  • 8 rISINGsUN // Dec 2, 2012 at 9:34 pm

    Turnovers were costly again in this one,Suns outrebounded and shot better than the Knickerbockers,but the loss was ours :).

    I wish Telfair was a more offensive guy,im a fan and would like to see him light games upa lil more :)

  • 9 Dan Smith // Dec 2, 2012 at 9:38 pm

    Alvin’s rotation is totally messed…as I witnessed myself Friday night in Toronto. He brings back starters with 3 mins. left in the fourth?? lol That, and I’ve seen him play guys from late 3rd all the way to the end of the 4th. How are you supposed to be effective when you are exhausted? I’ve seen him do it with guys who aren’t in the zone or anything as well. With the Raps game, Beas was doing good shooting a decent percentage but you hardly see him in the second half. And Dragon and Gortat were shooting good that game too but yet we go to ice cold Scola? I don’t know…none of this makes sense. And why is Morris playing less now than we was off the bench, might as well keep Scola the starter.

  • 10 bill.thomas // Dec 2, 2012 at 10:19 pm

    @ Dan Smith: Unbelievable indeed !!!!!!!!

  • 11 bill.thomas // Dec 2, 2012 at 10:31 pm

    Math According to Meta World Piece, and the Lakers according to D’Antoni:

    http://lakers.ocregister.com/2012/11/29/mike-dantoni-calls-lakers-offense-anemic/74944/

  • 12 bill.thomas // Dec 2, 2012 at 10:36 pm

    @ Shazam: I’m glad I’m not a tenant of yours, LOL.

  • 13 Anonymous // Dec 2, 2012 at 10:58 pm

    The suns will lose to the kansas city chiefs 4-0 in this years finals.

  • 14 Tony // Dec 3, 2012 at 12:05 am

    @Fan in Chi Town,

    what’s not to understand about why Dragic isn’t playing as much lately? He simply hasn’t played very well on this road trip and his defense has been awful. He either plays too far off his man giving him open shots or he plays tight defense and the opposing pg simply goes around him. And in today’s game, Telfair was playing better.

    @Scott,

    come on, first you make the ridiculous claim that Gentry’s the one who wanted Beasley all along, as if he really has any influence with the FO. Now you think the FO will trade him again?? There’s no way that will happen. He’s become the Suns fans favorite player and the only one they can market at this point. Unless he gets fed up playing on a lousy team and demands a trade, he’s not going to be traded.

  • 15 shazam // Dec 3, 2012 at 12:48 am

    the suns will beat the chiefs 4-3 in this years finals…@ tony and scott….scott is all over the map with his conclusions..its not as though he doesnt give it thought…he does but his extrapolation skills are lets just say very youthful..BUT he does get stuff right every now and then and comes up with angles to queries i would never think about…keep up the posts guys..im seeing new people this year or they have just changed names..what ever the chat is more interesting these days…so many more things to complain about…it used to be just 2 notes sarver sucks and do we or dont we trade nash

  • 16 shazam // Dec 3, 2012 at 1:01 am

    case in point…scott getting something right —–>”Hopefully Babby won’t say something about the situation, like: “Of course we fully support Dragic. He’s the cornerstone of our franchise for the future.” Because that will surely indicate the opposite. “….instead of watching the suns /mavs im going to watch godfather 3

  • 17 RisingSun // Dec 3, 2012 at 1:04 am

    Im a new poster,having just come across this site a few days ago,have enjoyed reading the game previews and reviews,also a few treks back into the memory archive of the glory days :)

    Fan from Australia here,so greetings and keep up the good work :)

  • 18 Luka // Dec 3, 2012 at 3:28 am

    Gentry should try going small for a few games and see if that jump starts the offense. Slide Beasley over to the 4, move Morris to back-up 5, and get Tucker to start at the 3.

  • 19 shazam // Dec 3, 2012 at 3:54 am

    luka that idea is as good as any…except they have to give playing time and build up stats for certain players so that they can be part of trades…just think of the suns right now as nothing more than an over stuffed colon

  • 20 Luka // Dec 3, 2012 at 4:33 am

    Very apt description, because the front office is full of shit.

  • 21 PennyAnd1 // Dec 3, 2012 at 5:25 am

    I have no idea what everyone is watching. I have never seen so many dumb plays. Gortat still sucks in using IQs, Brown still doesn’t know how to play consistently, everyone just sucks right now. I so much miss Steve Nash and the high IQ players that were with him.

    @Harry
    Beasley has been more effective if not on the same level as Gortat. I seriously don’t know what you’re watching.

    I hope Suns trade all the dumb players this X-mas: Gortat, Morris, Brown & yes Beasley
    They’re all an embarassment!

    Dragic also needs to play simple Basketball. He’s getting too complicated which isn’t working for the team.

  • 22 Luka // Dec 3, 2012 at 6:41 am

    @PennyAnd1

    The FO can start exploring deals for Beasley, and Brown after Dec 15. That’s when their new contract trade restriction expires. Scola can’t be included in any deal until July since he was claimed off waivers.

    There was some trade chatter regarding Gortat a few weeks ago. Gortat has voiced displeasure with the Suns, and he rejected the Suns’ extension offer. I’m willing to bet he’ll be shopped along with Beasley around the trade deadline. Several teams have shown interest in Gortat (BOS, ORL, CHI).

    The best deal for the Suns would be to send Gortat, Wesley Johnson’s expiring deal, and two picks, back to Orlando for: Vucevic, and Afflalo.

    The Suns would instantly get two solid young players to build around. Vucevic is a good scorer for a C. Afflalo is a great shooter and defender.

    Then, the Suns need to continue tanking so they can get a top 5 pick in the draft and hopefully land Shabaz at SF. Suddenly the Suns are a playoff team with these moves.

  • 23 Scott // Dec 3, 2012 at 8:55 am

    FWIW, I didn’t say they were going to trade Dragic. I said I would fail to be surprised, because there is a baked-in rationale for the trade.

    Dragic was initially traded by Blanks and Gentry for a reason. Telfair was acquired and retained by Blanks and Gentry for a reason. The question is: do the Suns look at their losing record and blame Dragic? Do they think Telfair does a better job of running the team after all?

    It’s hard for us on the outside to know what those on the inside see and want. But what I’d read on VotS, IIRC, was that Dragic was Sarver’s (and maybe Babby’s) suggestion, and not necessarily the pick of Blanks and Gentry.

    @shazam -

    There’s nothing wrong with a little youthfulness, even if it is mainly in the eye of the beholder. ;)

  • 24 Michael Schwartz // Dec 3, 2012 at 9:09 am

    @Scott Gentry loves Dragic and is very close to him. He was thrilled to get him back. Blanks on the other hand….

  • 25 DBreezy // Dec 3, 2012 at 9:52 am

    I think Sarver quite a mess on his hands. It’s not quite 20 games in, the usual early season benchmark, but with 2 to go I think some things are pretty evident. While I don’t think Gentry is necessarily the best fit for a young team, to me it’s clear that his team still respects and plays hard for him. At this point that’s the only relevant question imo. I say that because no established coach is coming in here midseason, if at all for this owner. So it comes down to whether you feel that one of Alvin’s assistants would do a better job for the rest of the season. I personally don’t believe that at this point.

    So do you what you want with Gentry in the offseason, but leave him be for now or this thing might descend further into the individual agenda and fake injury zone deep lottery teams often fall into in the 2nd quarter of the season when it’s clear things aren’t going well. I think it bears saying now because the losing streak could get a lot uglier going forward. looking at the schedule.

    I think the Gentry thing obscures the bigger issue of Babby and Blanks, something I don’t think either mind at this point. If you’re Sarver how could you trust these guys? Their signature move was obtaining Gortat to cover a mistake in Hedo, something that you privately know was a wink-wink deal with the same guy who winked at you for Childress who you are still paying. Now said signature move has regressed and doesn’t seem focused to put it kindly. Without getting into a big rehash of past and ongoing arguments, let’s just say that the future of their draft picks is clearly unclear. Dragic, the team’s best player, wasn’t drafted by this front office, was found with a much lower pick, and required a nudge from Sarver to reacquire.

    I know this is the time of the year that coaches, not GM’s, get fired but does that always makes sense? As we enter the trading season and college hoops scouting season, do we really want the men who wrecked the buffet at the Harrow Club making the decisions? How much further behind in the rebuild might that make them?

    I don’t think it’s outrageous to say that it will probably be at least 5 total seasons outside of the postseason for the Suns-that’s including the last two seasons to be clear. A few more missteps without a clear cut homerun though and they could easily add to that. Move your pieces wisely Bobby.

  • 26 Fan in Chi Town // Dec 3, 2012 at 10:08 am

    DBreezy – that was beautiful, and I agree with just about every word.

  • 27 Jason A. // Dec 3, 2012 at 11:01 am

    I’m disappointed in how things are going but I say you made your bed, it’s time to lie in it. This was always a wasted year one way or another. Lets stay the course and see what we have.

  • 28 john // Dec 3, 2012 at 11:43 am

    Not much else to say about the rest, but gentry was most definitely the engineer of the Beasley train from all indications in the press. And head coaches have a major influence in personnel decisions. Much more influence in the decision making process than the typical owner, in fact. Sorry for the youthful observations. I need some more exposure to the real world and the way things really are before I can add anything useful to the conversation.

  • 29 Voqar // Dec 3, 2012 at 1:14 pm

    They play beasely because they talked him up all summer. Not playing him would be admitting that reality trumped their fantasies of him somehow playing better than he did with other team.

    IMO, the problems start with Sarver and never end. Ever since Sarver bought the team it’s been in steady decline. He doesn’t want to pay players or staff. We have clowns in the front office.

    How is this supposed to ever turn around? A lucky draft pick? How often does that actually happen? One good draft pick isn’t going to salvage this mess any more than adding gordon or harden would’ve made any significant difference.

  • 30 Ty-Sun // Dec 3, 2012 at 1:51 pm

    Sooner or later Beasley needs to go to the bench. He’s not producing offensively or defensively with the first unit. He might actually be more productive against other team’s bench players. I don’t think it’s going to happen soon though.

    I disagree that adding Harden or Gordon wouldn’t have made a significant difference for the Suns this season. Either would have given the Suns a go-to scorer that they lack this year. Of course Gordon is “hurt” and hasn’t played at all this year so perhaps it’s best that NO matched the Suns’ offer for him.

  • 31 Scott // Dec 3, 2012 at 2:02 pm

    @Michael -

    Gentry prides himself on getting along with everybody. So if Gentry says he likes someone, I don’t think that’s a data point that really stands out. No doubt Gentry liked Lopez, Childress, Warrick, and Pietrus, too.

    I suspect Dragic is a good kid who is easy to get along with. And, in basketball terms, he is energetic, he’s durable, he plays both ways, and he has talent. So I think he’d be easy to like.

    But I remember before Dragic got traded, Gentry was putting unworkable groups out onto the floor and expecting Dragic to do something with them. Typically, it would be a bunch of 2 pt scorers and Dragic, so the defense would key on Dragic and sag back, nullifying attempts to score. Dragic wasn’t able to make it work, and Gentry would yell at Dragic and sit him. He replaced Dragic with Dowdell for a while (Dowdell wasn’t able to do any better), and I imagine when Blanks said to Gentry, “What do you need to get this straightened out?” I think Gentry said, “We need a better backup PG.”

    We all know Blanks thought Dragic was a poor PG, but IMO you can see it wasn’t solely his opinion. If Gentry thought Dragic was doing all that could be done, he wouldn’t have yelled at him or subbed him with Dowdell. He would have asked Blanks to get him someone at a different position, even if it was someone from the D-League.

    Of course, the truth was that Dragic was fine at PG. As we know, Brooks did exactly as well as Dowdell and Dragic. So it should be clear Dragic wasn’t the source of the problem, it was Gentry and the players he had to work with.

    So yes … the Suns have Dragic back, and Gentry likes Dragic, but I am not convinced that any of the original dynamics have changed. Dragic is still a nice and talented guy, Gentry still wants to get along with everybody, Gentry still puts bad groupings on the floor, and Blanks still can’t pick good talent.

  • 32 Scott // Dec 3, 2012 at 2:20 pm

    @john -

    Thank you! From what I’ve read and seen in video, it was Gentry and Blanks who wanted Beasley.

    I think the Suns have been critically weak in the GM dept going back to Colangelo. They need a much better person in that spot, someone who is more like a mastermind than a people pleaser.

    While I don’t have a problem with Babby being the in-house lawyer who handles contracts, Sarver needs to replace Blanks with a true basketball executive. Someone who sees things as they truly are, and how they need to be, and brings it all together.

    I was hoping the Suns would get Pritchard after he left the Blazers, but he’s working for Indiana now. Pritchard maybe isn’t a perfect GM, but he’s a cut above what the Suns have had the last few years.

    As NBA history shows, GM is a hard position to fill.

  • 33 john // Dec 3, 2012 at 2:23 pm

    Whether or not you want to credit Sarver with the acquisitions that brought the Suns near the top of the WC, Sarver bought a crappy team and they have been to multiple conference championships during his tenure. The fact is that the Suns had never had a stretch as successful as the SSOL era. The 90′s came close, perhaps. I liked those 90′s teams better, but they were just as flawed as the SSOL teams.

    Point is, it’s not right to say the Suns have been in decline for Sarver’s whole tenure, just as it’s not right to give all the credit or blame to an owner.

    I’m not trying to say he’s done great. I wish the Suns had a Mark Cuban, but that’s completely out of my control. What I am trying to say is that you people have a distorted view of the role of an owner.

  • 34 Scott // Dec 3, 2012 at 2:26 pm

    Oh, here’s one other thing to dread regarding Blanks …

    GMs normally like to pick their own coach. So let’s say Blanks isn’t that keen on Gentry. What coach would Blanks pick and sign to a contract, when Blanks himself has only one year left? And how would that affect the Suns? :)

  • 35 Tony // Dec 3, 2012 at 2:45 pm

    @Scott,

    no bud, you are absolutely wrong in claiming that Gentry was the orchestrator of the Beasley deal. And based on John’s opinion about the team Sarver had when he first purchased the Suns, it’s clear that John has no clue as to what he’s talking about.

    Scott, if Gentry had such clout with the Suns FO, then why did the FO low-ball their offer to Grant Hill? Hill was clearly one of Gentry’s favorite players, so if he had such influence to shape the Suns roster as you suggest, why didn’t the FO respect his desire to resign Hill? Let me be clear to you Scott; there is nothing to indicate Gentry recruited and orchestrated the Beasley deal to the Suns. In fact, all three-Babby, Blanks, and Gentry-first met with Beasley together. Beasley also apparently had the Suns as his first option where to sign because he thought he would be a good fit in the Suns system.

    @John

    Sarver “bought a crappy team”????? Do you remember the talent the Colangelos left him with? Next time you try to state something as a fact, you might want to consider checking to make sure it’s actually correct.

    The starting lineup left to Sarver when he purchased the Suns, in 2004, included the following players: Amare, Marion, Joe Johnson, and Nash. Are you suggesting those were crappy players too?

    So John, stop drinking the Sarver-koolaide and try to get your facts straight.

  • 36 Tony // Dec 3, 2012 at 2:53 pm

    Oh and Scott, you have no idea what Gentry and Blanks discussed with respect to Dragic, so don’t put what you believe was spoken in quotes, as those statements were never publicly made. Moreover, the fact that he yelled at Dragic in the past means absolutely nothing. It doesn’t prove Gentry wanted him traded or that he wanted to him stay a Sun. All it means is that for whatever reason, Gentry was upset with something Dragic did on the court at that particular moment in time.

  • 37 john // Dec 3, 2012 at 2:59 pm

    Perhaps you need practice with reading comprehension. Perhaps you need practice with being a socially acceptable human being. I’m not sure which. My comment addressed the personnel you mentioned. Go back and read it again or don’t bother replying.

  • 38 Scott // Dec 3, 2012 at 3:06 pm

    @Tony -

    Was any other team trying to recruit Beasley? I can easily imagine Beasley’s agent getting just the one call from Blanks in Phoenix, and wiping his brow in relief that he wasn’t going to have to start calling around in China to see if he could get Beasley on a team there.

    Of course Gentry would recruit Beasley along with Babby and Blanks. That is how it is universally done. He wouldn’t be there by himself. Babby does the contract work, and Blanks has the final say on personnel. Gentry would be there to answer the player’s questions about how the player would contribute to the team.

    I’m not saying Gentry, by himself, picked Beasley out of the entire field of NBA players and prospects and personally recruited him. But I think he and Blanks converged upon Beasley as their mutual choice, and it would have been Blanks who would have worked out the salary level and years with Babby and Beasley before submitting the contract to Sarver for signing.

  • 39 Tony // Dec 3, 2012 at 3:13 pm

    @Dbreezy,

    once again, great post. I couldn’t agree more with you. It makes no sense to fire Gentry now, and I seriously doubt he will be fired. The only foreseeable exception is if the team totally loses faith in him and because most of the roster are still team-first players, I don’t think them giving up on Gentry will happen.

    With that being said, at this point I think it would take a miracle for the FO to resign Gentry as head coach. The Suns FO, Blanks in particular, have not placed much trust in Gentry since they came aboard, and refusing to offer him an extension is just another indicator that they plan on replacing him after this season.

    What I’m interested in though is who they hire to replace Gentry? I always thought they were grooming Turner to take over Gentry’s head-coaching job when his contract ended, but under Turner, the team’s defense has become worse. So I have a hard time believing he gets the head coaching job next season.

    However, no great coach is going to coach this franchise as it is currently structured. The FO structure Sarver set up makes no sense and intrudes upon the separation of the normal duties and responsibilities that distinguish a Team President and a GM. Sarver created a quasi-President/GM and reduced the GM position’s independence and legitimacy as Blanks is more of a glorified scout than a true GM. In fact, I remember that was one of the reasons why no established GM wanted the Suns GM job and why they hired Blanks. So I cannot foresee any established head coach wanting to deal with such an absurdly structured front office and with Sarver himself.

  • 40 Tony // Dec 3, 2012 at 3:34 pm

    @john,

    Maybe you just don’t know the definition of crappy. How in the world can you qualify a team featuring Nash, JJ, Amare, and Marion as a crappy team?? Sure, they didn’t win a title, but is that your measuring stick? A team must win a championship or else they’re crappy? The Suns were an elite team when Sarver took over. Contrary to what you said, the value of the franchise and prospects of winning a championship were rising in 2004.

    So, in addition to checking your facts, you might want to consider purchasing a dictionary so that you know the correct meaning of words you use.

    Scott,

    I am in no manner suggesting that Gentry opposed signing Beasley. I’m sure he supported it and I can definitely understand why he would be so inclined to support Beasley’s signing. I mean, Beasley should in all respects be perfect for the uptempo system Gentry uses. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if Gentry thought Beasley might turn into another Shawn Marion type player.

    Where I take issue with your position is that you claim Gentry was the most responsible for recruiting Beasley, more so than Babby or Blanks. There’s nothing to indicate that is true at all. Unless you have some insider knowledge, there simply was insufficient public information to suggest that Babby and Blanks were any less supportive of signing Beasley than Gentry.

  • 41 Scott // Dec 3, 2012 at 3:46 pm

    And, of course, when I say the contract was worked out with “Beasley” I mean Beasley and his agent …

    As for Sarver buying a “crappy” team … here’s a copy/paste from wiki.

    You may not recall it, but at the end of the Colangelo ownership period the Suns were indeed on the wane, having traded Kidd for Marbury, then Marbury and Penny for a rental on an ailing McDyess and a pick that was never used.

    Those final years were the Marbury / Hardaway / Jake Voskuhl / Scott Williams years.

    Nash was acquired in Sarver’s first offseason, in 2004. Joe Johnson had been picked up at the start of 2002, but he was still struggling to play consistently well under Frank Johnson at the time Sarver bought the team. When Sarver bought the team and signed Nash, Quentin Richardson was brought onboard to start at SG over Joe Johnson.

    Amare’s rookie year was the season after JJ was acquired (2002-2003), and that year and the next he was so raw he only knew one move: get up next to the basket and go right. He could not shoot yet, and his defense and rebounding were considered subpar.

    Amare’s poor shooting in his early days is part of what made his 3 pt buzzer beater against the Spurs in the playoffs so satisfying. His shooting touch didn’t come along till the D’Antoni / Sarver years.

    From wiki:

    The Suns continued to make the playoffs until the 2001–02 campaign, when they fell short for the first time in 14 years. That season marked the trade of Jason Kidd, partly due to a publicized domestic violence episode, to the New Jersey Nets for Stephon Marbury. Lottery-bound, however, the Suns were able to draft Amar’e Stoudemire.

    The 2002–03 campaign saw the emergence of Stoudemire, a graduate from Cypress Creek High School (Orlando, Florida). He became the first and only high school player to win the NBA Rookie of the Year in the 2002–03 season (until LeBron James did it the following season), during which the Suns posted a record of 44–38 and returned to the playoffs. Marbury had a stellar individual season, making the All-NBA Third Team and being selected for the 2003 NBA All-Star Game. The Suns were eliminated in the first round once again by the San Antonio Spurs; a six-game series with the eventual NBA champions.

    In the 2003–04 season, the Suns found themselves out of the playoffs. The Suns made a blockbuster mid-season trade sending Marbury and Hardaway to the New York Knicks for Antonio McDyess and a future first round pick, that was later dealt to Denver.

    2004-2012: The Steve Nash Era
    2004-2007: Division Champions

    The beginning of 2004 saw the departure of the face of Suns management since the team’s inception, when Jerry Colangelo announced that the Phoenix Suns were to be sold to an investment group headed by San Diego-based business executive (and Tucson native) Robert Sarver for $401 million. However, the 2004–05 season marked the Suns’ return to the NBA’s elite, finishing with the best record at 62–20, and tying a franchise record set by the 1992–93 team. This feat was made possible by the off-season unrestricted FA signing of All-Star point guard Steve Nash from Dallas who had formerly played for them at the beginning of his career. Nash would go on to win the MVP award that season. Amar’e Stoudemire and Shawn Marion were named All-Stars and first year coach, Mike D’Antoni, was named NBA Coach of the Year.

  • 42 cdubb // Dec 3, 2012 at 3:48 pm

    @Tony, you are very sensible…

    @Scott, you are not….. everything you said about the FO and Gentry regarding Beasley and Dragic was pure and utter speculation on your part. It sounds like you actually spend your time thinking up scenarios and then try passing them off as something that has merit. Truth is everything you said goes against what information has been put out in the public by the Suns organization. By all accounts, Dragic and Gentry were and still are very very close, beyond a typical coach/player relationship. Dragic wasn’t getting it done the year he was traded, and I grantee you I can go back to a thread from then and find comments made by you of how bad Dragic was playing! Don’t try to act like Dragic was just in a bad situation and should have no responsibility which is basically what you said by shifting blame on Gentry and his bench unit.

    I also remember reading an article that talked about how Blanks was a big fan of Brooks and thought he would provide the spark we needed to make a playoff push. With the way Dragic was playing that year, imagine how easily Blanks could have went right over Gentrys head and persuaded Sarver that Dragic for Brooks was the right decision. What would Gentry do to stop it? He would have no leverage in that argument because of the way Dragic was playing. Here let me act like you for a second…..

    Blanks: “Dragic just isn’t providing what we need out there right now, we can bring in this very good, proven 20ppg scorer in Brooks and he can get it done”

    Sather: “Well I can’t argue with facts and numbers. Facts is Dragic is playing horrible and Brooks is a very good scorer.. which our bench could really use. Alvin, what do you think?”

    Gentry: ” Mkay guys, please don’t trade Dragic… he has potential and is a very good friend of mine”

    Sarver: ” Call Houston and get it done Lance… sorry Alvin.”

  • 43 cdubb // Dec 3, 2012 at 3:57 pm

    Way more realistic then that soap opera drama you thought up

  • 44 cdubb // Dec 3, 2012 at 4:04 pm

    Regarding Sarver… he purchased neither a great nor a happy team. He purchased a slightly above average team with very good young players to build on and a couple of established vets. People are to hard on Sarver. He is no Mark Cuban, but we had a great run under his ownership and realistically should won a championship in 07 when Amare and Diaw got suspended in the Spurs series. If that never happened, all signs say we would have won the. championship and Sarver haters would be singing a different tune. I don’t love or hate the guy, but he let Steve Kerr build a contender outta nothing but Nash and Stat and made the right decision about not re-signing Amare on his terms. Solid owner IMO.. could be better, could be worse…

  • 45 Scott // Dec 3, 2012 at 4:05 pm

    I was re-reading the above, and I don’t mean to imply that Frank Johnson was coach when Sarver bought the team. In the first part of the 2003-20o4 season, Johnson had been replaced by his assistant, interim coach D’Antoni, who Sarver provisionally kept as coach.

    Nobody had any idea at the time that Nash, D’Antoni, and the rest of the cast of characters would catch fire like they did.

    The difference between the waning years of the Colangelo ownership and the start of the Sarver ownership was stark. In the summer of 2004, the pundits were declaring that the Suns would be among the worst teams in the league, definitely out of the playoffs picture.

    Also, it was Bryan Colangelo who failed to draft Andre Iguodala in 2004, and after failing to re-sign Joe Johnson, it was Colangelo who traded him to the Hawks. In Feb of 2006 that Colangelo relocated to Toronto.

    (I had mistakenly been blaming D’Antoni for the screw up on Iguodala, when it was Colangelo. Sometimes it helps one’s memory to go back though the history.)

  • 46 Scott // Dec 3, 2012 at 4:17 pm

    @cdubb -

    Your guarantee would fail, because I wasn’t complaining about how bad Dragic was playing before he was traded, I was complaining about who Gentry put on the floor with him, just as I have said now. Also, I wasn’t on VotS at that time, I was on Suns.com, and under a different name.

    As for your argument that Blanks chose to not work with his coach and went straight to Sarver … while I suppose it is possible, it seems unlikely to me that right after the Suns lost coach D’Antoni to the interference of GM Kerr that Sarver would agree to let Blanks unilaterally dismiss a favorite player of Gentry’s.

  • 47 john // Dec 3, 2012 at 4:19 pm

    Am I wrong in thinking the Suns won 27 games the year before Sarver took over?

  • 48 Michael Schwartz // Dec 3, 2012 at 4:21 pm

    Yes, because they won 29. :) But I think that makes your point just as well.

  • 49 john // Dec 3, 2012 at 4:24 pm

    Haha, indeed. My mistake.

    You know the season is going poorly when it’s not even 1/4 of the way done and all you can talk about as fans is the front office.

  • 50 Tony // Dec 3, 2012 at 5:03 pm

    @Scott,

    I’m sorry, what exactly does that Wiki Article prove?

    Firstly, the 02-03 season featured a rookie Amare, who subsequently became rookie of the year; a 2nd year Joe Johnson; no Nash; a new head coach; and two over the hill and often-injured players in Hardaway and Marbury. Then, of course, they the previous FO traded the latter two to open cap space for bringing in Nash. So tell me again what your point is? Just because Amare, JJ, and Nash hadn’t established themselves as great players at that point doesn’t negate how good they later became.

    Your argument would make sense if, right before Colangelo sold the Suns to Sarver, he traded those 3 and got little in return. All those guys eventually became All-Star players. They all played exceptional well in the 04-05 season. Amare averaged over 20ppg; JJ 16.7ppg; Marion 19.4ppg; and Nash got his first MVP in the 04-05 season. So, these four players took the Suns to not just having the best record in the NBA, but also to the Conference Finals.
    So, I think it’s fair to say that after the 2004-2005 season, Robert Sarver knew he had a very good team. Not only that, but the Suns team featured elite young talent that would most likely lead the franchise to several conference finals appearances.

    Again Scott, I don’t really get what you’re trying to prove. If anything, that article validates what I said. The Suns roster was made exceptionally better by the acquisition of Nash-who was recruited by Colangelo-and the chemistry and experience gained from the younger guys like Amare and JJ were all factors that led the Suns to the western conference finals in Sarver’s first year as owner. Sarver was in a great position taking over such a talented team. He didn’t need to go out and recruit elite talent because he already had it. All he needed to do was to stay out of the way and maintain the roster as it was constructed.

    However, as we all know, Sarver subsequently low-balled JJ, who then felt disrespected which led to him asking Sarver not to match the Hawks offer. Similarily, Sarver didn’t want to pay Marion’s asking price when his contract ended, then he didn’t want to pay Amare his asking price, and finally decided not to offer Nash an extension last season.

  • 51 DBreezy // Dec 3, 2012 at 5:28 pm

    While we’ve devolved a bit, I think the original point @John was making misses the current issue. While I’ve bit just as many opinions about Sarver as the next fan, and have argued them a bunch of times on the old AZC board, I don’t think it’s relevant right now.

    It doesn’t matter if you are pro, anti, or neutral on Sarver or what you think about his past, he’s the only one that can start the fixing of the current situation. It’s bigger than Gentry, it goes to the people running the front office for him. He’s the only one who can replace them. Even @Scott’s idea of just replacing Blanks won’t work without Sarver. I doubt Babby has the autonomy to do anything in that regard as he’s in the last year of his deal and Lance has one more year.

    There’s also the matter of the unique structure of the Suns front office. Just keeping Babby around for contracts as @Scott suggests would require a change in how the front office is structured presently. It would also likely cause the need for assurances from Sarver as the current structure was an issue for some of the candidates for Blanks position. Plus if you’re even thinking about moving Babby or Blanks why change coaches as a new staff will likely want input there?

    While I’m a big proponent of knowing your history, what matters most here is that action is needed and only one man can do it.

  • 52 Scott // Dec 3, 2012 at 5:40 pm

    Bryan Colangelo: “Joe Johnson made us aware of his personal desires, which just didn’t fit our model of building a team. We’re sorry to see Joe leave and we wish him nothing but the best in Atlanta.”

  • 53 john // Dec 3, 2012 at 5:49 pm

    @Tony

    What you call “low-balling,” another man might call “being smart.”

    JJ, Marion (while he was still on his huge contract), and Amar’e are three of the most overpaid players in the NBA. Not only are they not worth what they all wanted, it would have been IMPOSSIBLE to keep all those players due to cap issues. You can’t pay $60M to four guys and expect to fill out a roster.

    Sure, we’re all bitter that the Suns didn’t win it all and that they’re doing so poorly now, but it’s not like every day was sunny in Phoenix before Sarver showed up.

    Babby/Blanks, yes, they need to go.

    I even believe Gentry needs to go.

    They’re the ones making basketball decisions, and the basketball decisions have been mostly bad for the last couple of years (and a lot of that has been circumstantial as well, out of any one person’s or group’s control).

  • 54 Scott // Dec 3, 2012 at 5:59 pm

    @DBreezy -

    I did say Sarver needs to replace Blanks with a true executive. And the problem, IMO, is not just the current structure or office holders, but the slew of GMs going back to Bryan Colangelo. Sarver needed someone like Sam Presti.

    As for the player contracts, Kerr seemed to think the Suns needed someone specially devoted to NBA contracts. I don’t know if that’s valid, or what other teams do. I’m not saying the Suns need to keep Babby, and that no one else can do that job.

    I’m just saying that whoever has been making the personnel decisions – which I believe is Blanks – should be replaced, and this time Sarver needs to appoint someone who is a “mastermind” or “chess master” type person … someone who has a high IQ, who can see what is, who can make a plan, who can make good deals, and who can think several steps ahead, yet with the flexibility to change plans on the fly if there’s an injury or something goes awry.

    The GM also ought to be able to communicate to the press. The current situation of Babby saying one thing and Blanks doing the opposite is awkward.

    Also, if this is Gentry’s last contract year, that makes it even more sensible for the Suns to pick a new GM, as that way they can select a coach that goes with the new plan.

  • 55 Tony // Dec 3, 2012 at 6:40 pm

    @Scott,

    come on, this is my last comment on this particular subject because it is pointless to argue with someone who refuses to accept facts. I’m sure you are aware that there were two Colangelos invested in the Suns franchise. Jerry Colangelo (principal founder/owner) and his son, Brian Colangelo (Team President/GM). Now Scott,when you attempt to argue with me, you must be sure to fact-check before you try to state a claim. In my line of work, it is essential to get your facts straight. For instance, I noticed that you failed to include that, that statement was attributed to Suns President and General Manager Bryan Colangelo. Notice that Bryan was not the owner of the franchise and that he stayed with the Sarver-led ownership group until 2006. Thus, just so we are clear. Jerry Colangelo sold the franchise to Sarver in 2004 and his son Bryan stayed as Team President and GM until 2006, when he finally was too fed up with negotiating a contract extension with Robert Sarver. There’s a surprise for you huh?

    @John,

    I have no disagreement with you regarding JJ and Amare’s worth. Moreover, there’s no question that Sarver would not have been able to afford all four of those guys either. I didn’t even disagree with his refusal to offer Amare a max deal in 2010. However, I do fault him for the players he replaced those All Stars with.

    @Dbreezy,

    I have to disagree with you on it not mattering who the cause was for the Suns current predicament. The reason I disagree is that the same person who caused the Suns to be in this position remains and is still the principal owner. I’m sure you know the saying, that it is imperative to learn history otherwise you are doomed to repeat the same mistakes. Sarver has not learned from his mistakes; most likely, it is because he probably doesn’t believe he’s been such a horrible owner.

  • 56 DBreezy // Dec 3, 2012 at 6:57 pm

    @Scott,

    I pretty much agree with everything you said. I don’t care if they keep Babby as a contract guy, I just think that the current structure where he is the boss will hinder the Suns from attracting a Sam Presti type. I think it did with Demps who chose a less attractive (IMO) situation in New Orleans where he knew going in he’d have to trade CP3 while working for the league. Sarver and Babby did a lot of wooing to try and get Dell in here.

    The current situation is awkward, but it was not created by Babby or Blanks. I think if Sarver wants that big picture view he should probably hire a guy who wants that semi-retired role in the vein of Jerry West in GS or Walsh in IND. Colangelo makes sense, but wouldn’t happen for obvious reasons. It’s know that Phil Jackson is interested in that kind of a role, but he wants his protégés as a package deal which may or may not fly with Sarver. Also if you hire a guy like PJ or a Larry Brown type you’d have to keep Babby or hire a Tom Penn type to work contracts. I know Penn was considered here before Blanks/Babby were hired.

    I really don’t feel like getting into a big argument about Sarver’s past, but I don’t think it’s a huge leap to say that jobs here aren’t going to pay a lot of money relative to market value. I say that only to point out that some of out of box thinking may be required. You may not get a big name like Phil for the job, but perhaps a less sexy name like Del Harris, Rudy T, etc may be a good fit in the overseer role to some basketball minds and a contract guy.

    My biggest concern right now is trades and the draft. Trades speak for themselves, but I think some may overlook that Blanks is doing work now scouting that could affect the Suns from next June and beyond.

  • 57 DBreezy // Dec 3, 2012 at 7:51 pm

    @Tony,

    I’m very big on history which I noted in the comments you’re referring to. However as observers without control/input, there are limitations in what we say. Over on AZC in 2011, I was advocating a trade for Beasley based around giving Minny Lopez. My reasoning was that Minny was looking to move Beasley because they had Williams coming in with the #2 pick and were overvaluing it in trade and that the Suns front office of Babby/Blanks had no intention of extending or retaining R.Lo imo. So why not rent Beasley for a year in exchange for a guy they already knew they weren’t going to keep, and see what he could do with Nash and Hill? If it didn’t pan out, let him go as a RFA and you’re not really any worse for the wear. Well we got Beasley, but not the way I wanted to see it. I could cry about it or look at it for what it is going forward.

    I see Sarver the same way. While I have plenty of thoughts about the guy, the history is really the stuff for debates amongst fans at this point. The guy isn’t going anywhere any time soon. Even if the dream of him selling comes true, it’s not happening any time soon. So any solutions to their problems must involve the man. To me that’s not absolution for what he’s done, just knowledge of the reality as a Suns fan.

  • 58 shazam // Dec 3, 2012 at 9:19 pm

    heres a quick tutorial on scott..all you need to know when reading his posts…last year i was obsessed with michael redd and followed EVERYTHING i could find on him…scott would often insinuate that redd held out for weeks before signing a contract with the suns..i always asked…scott where are you getting this info,i have to know?..he would ignore me…one day he states that redd did hold out for weeks..it was no longer an insinuation..so i decided to corner him..i kept asking and asking..finally he said..”i think i read it in the bleacher report”(if youre going to pull stuff out of thin air are you really going to cite bleacher?)…i went back and researched and of course there was nothing there…scott lives in his head and thinks he can enter other peoples heads…he states machinations as absolutes or facts…with that said a lot of geniuses work that way…they allow crazy angles in to their heads to be mulled over until in their mind it becomes fact…they only need to get a few things right that others havent thought of and everyone forgets how often they are wrong…so far scott hasnt hit on his E=mc2 yet…but he will..i have faith in him..youthful.

  • 59 toomuch // Dec 3, 2012 at 9:58 pm

    i just dont get it. Did you guys think this was a playoff team? So much negativity, delusions of grandeur, and just too much activity for what this team is. I’m sure the website guys love it, but its ridiculous.

    I cant imagine the activity over on Lakers blogs. They were expected to challenge the best record ever. So it would make sense that everyones posting and going crazy. But these Suns were picked to finish dead last by most experts. Aside from Dragic, theres really no reason to even watch this team.

    Best thing to do is stop participating. I really mean that. Nothing the Suns do this year will be of any importance. Check back in next year and we’ll see what it looks like. Can you obsessed ocd clowns handle that? I doubt it

  • 60 bill.thomas // Dec 3, 2012 at 10:36 pm

    @too much: Wow, anonymous social commentary and moralism. Boy, would I just love to have you at MY barbeque !

  • 61 Mikel // Dec 3, 2012 at 10:50 pm

    @toomuch Totally agree! Lol everybody was way too optimistic coming in to the season!! i admit i was excited to see our new suns team but i wasnt expecting a playoff run! I still love the suns though!

  • 62 Luka // Dec 3, 2012 at 10:54 pm

    As long as Sarver is owner, the Suns go nowhere. Any success Phoenix has had goes right to the Colangelos.
    Sarver had a chance to redeem himself in 2010, but he chose to take a wrecking ball to a team 2 wins away from the finals. The way he lowballed Kerr after all his hard work putting that 2010 team together was flat out inexcusable.

    The only hope we can have is that attendance continues dropping (24th worst in NBA), and the team keeps underperforming. I guarantee Sarver will sell when Babby’s contract expires.

  • 63 cdubb // Dec 3, 2012 at 10:54 pm

    @Too much.. you nailed it.

  • 64 shazam // Dec 3, 2012 at 11:22 pm

    too much ..no one or very few thought this years suns would be any good to answer that question…your next quote —>”So much negativity, delusions of grandeur, and just too much activity for what this team is”..thanks for your opinion even though you prolly dont have a degree to have that informed opinion..this team has a different history than most..we have come close recently..not being nba darlings is semi new to us..let us adjust AND at the end of the day we are fans of our team..its basketball season..its what we like to do…your next quote —-> “Best thing to do is stop participating. I really mean that. Nothing the Suns do this year will be of any importance. Check back in next year and we’ll see what it looks like. Can you obsessed ocd clowns handle that? I doubt it”…for the most part we have stopped participating..look at our attendance and tv ratings…we just show up here to remind each other that we are upset and waiting for a couple of years to pass so we dont have to be negative….you are new here and just came up with your name and character…why would you go through that trouble?…oh because you are a clown shoe with ocd issues that are slightly different than the ones you cite here?i really like your quote ” So much negativity, delusions of grandeur”…a lot of balls to post a comment with that exact tone while chastising others for it….now go make up a new name and talk about how smart too much is.

  • 65 Scott // Dec 3, 2012 at 11:34 pm

    @shazam -

    If I have a source I can quote I usually do, especially when someone asks.

    As for the Bleacher Report, I have indeed used them as a reference, the main time being where I quoted from them to show the history of how the Suns really used their draft picks under Sarver, which was not the way it is commonly described (“Sarver sold all the Suns’ draft picks and pocketed the cash!!!”). The Bleacher Report had this information packaged neatly into what was essentially a description of a train derailment, with moment by moment photos.

    As for Michael Redd delaying signing with the Suns, didn’t the Suns say they had talked to his agent long before Redd actually signed? I have looked and can’t find a quote on that, but that sort of information isn’t readily searchable by Google (or at least I can’t think of search terms that would work). For that matter, I may have gotten that info from a video interview, a report on television, or from some fragment like what may be found regarding Redd and the Suns this past summer on http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nba/720/michael-redd

    On that page there are short reports saying:

    FA Redd being courted by Suns and Bulls
    Jul 6 – 3:37 PM

    Michael Redd taking time in making decision
    Aug 1 – 3:03 PM

    And so on. I imagine what happened in this particular case was that Blanks was keeping Brown and Redd on his back burner while he tried to sign Gordon and Mayo, and when those deals fell through, and Brown was still available, he picked Brown (and not Redd).

    As for me “stating machinations as absolutes or facts,” I’m pretty regular about using phrases like “I think” or “I imagine” or some other cue to signify I’m speculating. BTW, I did it in the paragraph above. If you are speed-reading and gloss over these speculative phrases, that’s hardly my fault.

    @Tony -

    I have been following the Suns since 1992, when Jerry Colangelo was GM. A couple of years later, Jerry turned over the GM reins to his son, and one of Bryan’s first moves was to trade 3x All-Star Dan Majerle to the Cavs for Hot Rod Williams.

    Anyway, I never said Bryan Colangelo was Jerry Colangelo, and I attributed the quote correctly to Bryan. I also clearly stated in my other comments that it was Bryan Colangelo, working as GM for Sarver, who failed to draft Iguodala in 2004, and who failed to retain Joe Johnson.

    Furthermore, I do know that Bryan and Jerry don’t make a popular brand of ice cream, just in case you were thinking I was making that mistake as well. ;)

  • 66 shazam // Dec 3, 2012 at 11:43 pm

    @ scott i only mentioned my history from last year and i busted you on it dont confuse it with this year…rarely do i even disagree with you..remember last year you wanted rolo and gortat to start together?…under the guise that we have nothing to lose..hell i jumped on that one and we were the only ones..everyone left us stranded on that island…i see an E=mc2 in your future :)

  • 67 m.i.milliman // Dec 4, 2012 at 1:35 am

    Its the front office and the owners fault. The front office for taking uneducated risks and the owners fault for continuing to let it go on. Sarver won’t fire Gentry or B&B because he doesn’t want to pay them for nothing, he would rather get another year of magic 8ball decision making than to have to pay out. I can’t blame Gentry because what are you supposed to do with a roster like this, win? Not in this league, and certainly not in the West. Sarver isn’t the worst, he’s just not very good, If he were the worst the team would be loosing and loosing money. I don’t think they’re loosing money. He’s a business man and don’t let the foam finger fool you, he’s business first, then fan.

    Did anyone besides B&B really think Beasley was going to turn out?

  • 68 Melon Man // Dec 4, 2012 at 2:35 am

    @ DBreezy

    I thought I was the only guy quoting Beverly Hills Cop II.

  • 69 Luka // Dec 4, 2012 at 2:58 am

    @Milliman

    Sarver is widely considered to be one of the worst owners in the NBA. He’s stubborn, ignorant, and frugal. About the worst combination you can have. He never lets people do their jobs, and rewards hard work with a pay cut. The only way he doesn’t lose money, is finding someone who’ll do the job for less. As an owner he doesn’t stand for winning. He’s a clueless corporate tool, who got in way over his head, and probably regrets buying the team.

  • 70 toomuch // Dec 4, 2012 at 3:13 am

    @shazam – LOL take it easy. I think I riled you up with the “obsessed ocd clowns” comment. I just meant it in that shock jock kind of way. Hell, we are all guilty of wasting precious time on these types of blogs. Complete waste of time, but very addicting. We humans just love to hear someone agree with us. Also the main reason blogs do well is because misery loves company.

    All that I was implying is try to step back and remove yourself from the suns for a bit (if its always negative feelings). Otherwise at end of season you’ll realize how much time was wasted here griping about the same old things. Especially when it is plain as day that their struggles will continue and probably get worse.

    And just for one last test for everyone. Start paying attention to the different forums your in. Whether its sports, movies, celebrities, etc. Ask yourself why you are there and what are you gaining from it. And then remember that people are making money off you. (ya, I’m bitter, so what)

  • 71 shazam // Dec 4, 2012 at 5:12 am

    too much…nothing you can write or do will rile me up in the real world…this is just a cyber play ground…dont take your words so serious..no one else does so why should you?…with that said…i actually agree with you on all of it but why should you care?..its funny that you bring up shock jock because ive been one (worked with stern and mancow)…but what i really liked is that i often have to remind people that im just a character here who takes both sides of most arguments ,puts them in a blender to goof on people…thats basically what youre doing as well..love it..so what do i gain from it..its a guilty pleasure about a subject i love..i retired young and have earned it :) ….a lot of sites do make money…by biz acumen says this one doesn’t…they love the suns and get free tickets to games and events because they are “media”..anything more than that is just pocket change….they deserve more

  • 72 DBreezy // Dec 4, 2012 at 6:58 am

    @Melon Man,

    Love Aquel Foley….

  • 73 Sillmarillion // Dec 4, 2012 at 7:22 am

    Sooo… The Suns gonna win tonight or what :D ? Go Suns!

  • 74 DBreezy // Dec 4, 2012 at 9:10 am

    Speaking of money and different subjects, how much money is ESPN making and going to make on the Lakers this season? They covered them hard all summer and preseason. They along with TNT helped nudge along the Mike Brown departure and are having a field day with the Phil Jackson/D’Antoni thing. To the point where they’ve turned the fact that Pau Gasol simply isn’t playing very well like Kobe said into something bigger.

    Gasol hasn’t been happy since Phil left and first Bynum and now Howard became the featured post player. That wouldn’t have changed if Phil came back as there is no way Phil would have featured Gasol on the block over Howard in the triangle. Gasol would have been Bill Wennington, so stop pouting about it. Perhaps he should talk to his brother or David Robinson about what you have to do when you have two post players regardless of the offensive style chosen. It’s funny, according to 82games.com, Gasol is actually shooting ‘close’ shots at a 5% higher clip this season than last while shooting at exactly the same clip as last season (66%).

    The best part of all of this drama is that eventually that team will adjust to the each other(lot of new faces) and their 2nd coach, along with Nash returning in what will essentially be a back to back lockout season for him. They will go on some big tear where all involved will be praised by ‘the network’. Then the playoffs will come and they’ll re-raise all the questions they have now to make more drama. It’ll be like having another presidential election.

    The Thunder have to love it though, as I don’t think their players are built for this type of constant media buffoonery and it clearly would have been on them post-finals/post-Harden if the Lakers had gotten off to a normal start.

  • 75 Michael // Dec 4, 2012 at 9:33 am

    Let´s get Pau for Gortat, WJ and the crappy Lakers picks!

    Pau will get his shots for sure, and Marcin can get back to his whining backup role behind D12.

  • 76 DBreezy // Dec 4, 2012 at 9:51 am

    “Let´s get Pau for Gortat, WJ and the crappy Lakers picks!”

    You think you hate it now, but wait till you drive it….

  • 77 Michael // Dec 4, 2012 at 9:58 am

    The sunny Valley… Could be the feeling of Vacation for Pau… :)

    Btw, how much value do those picks have when you throw them into a trade? Can´t find hard numbers for that.

  • 78 DBreezy // Dec 4, 2012 at 10:13 am

    The NBA in their infinite wisdom assigns no trade value for draft picks. This is something I wish was changed in the last cba. My best guess as to why is because the league wants to prevent teams salary dumping players for draft picks as an attempt at competitive balance. But in a league with an increasingly punitive luxury tax and scaled pay system I think that notion is past it’s time. It makes for complicated trades when a team voluntarily wishes to trade a player for picks to start over or adjust to salary/luxury cap. I’d rather see teams be able to do what they want to do in trades and not have to do things like include a retired Keith Van Horn in a trade to make things work.

  • 79 Polish_fan // Dec 4, 2012 at 10:20 am

    I would like to say few words about lat game.

    I can see that everyone are saying that Dragic is the best player in that team and its ‘surprising’ that he was sitting at the bench during 4th quater.

    If You would pay attention just to him, You would find out that his first option in the offence was always a shot/penetration or something else… anything but a pass or setting a nice offensive play for his teammates. It does not matter if its a pass to Gortat, Beast or any other player…. PLUS his deffensive skills which wasn`t at the best level gave a result – taking him off the playing ground ….

  • 80 m.i.milliman // Dec 4, 2012 at 11:27 am

    @ Luka

    Okay then. I won’t argue with that. I basically said it anyway, just not so angsty about it I guess.

    @ Polish_fan

    Your not wrong about Dragic, the only thing I might say in his defense is, look who he has around him. Not much. He is the best player out there, but still, you’re right, you can’t do it alone. You gotta play as a team and then maybe you’ll become greater than the sum of your parts. That was the genius of Nash. RIP

  • 81 john // Dec 4, 2012 at 11:32 am

    @Tony

    “However, I do fault him for the players he replaced those All Stars with. ”

    While I’m also not happy with the players that replaced Amar’e and JJ (although Boris did work out pretty well for the Suns for a couple years), I don’t seem to put as much of the blame in the lap of the owner as you do (at least not directly). I tend to put more of the blame on the GM (yes, I know the GM is hired by the owner), as the GM is the person making the actual personnel decisions 99% of the time (unless you have an owner/GM like Jerry Jones or an owner like Cuban, whose level of commitment to detail and sabermetrics is seemingly unmatched in the owner community). I blame Sarver for not finding the right guy to bring in the Suns’ next big star (yet), but I also realize a lot of that is based on luck and circumstance.

    For instance, unless you have someone named LeBron James, Kevin Durant, or Dwight Howard on your team, I don’t think you’re going to be winning a championship in the NBA in the next 5 years. Were the Suns EVER going to get any of those guys? What megastars or just plain stars were available for the Suns to sign in the last 3 or 4 years? ‘Melo was never going anywhere except New York. ZBo wasn’t leaving Memphis. Bosh wanted to stick with his buddies. D-Wade is all Miami through and through. LeBron… no way. Howard wanted to be a Laker the whole time, in my opinion, no matter how much the media wanted to make Brooklyn or Houston or Dallas seem like a possibility. There’s no way Dirk was leaving Dallas.

    There aren’t that many stars in the NBA to go around, and the teams that are lucky enough to land one do everything in their power to keep them, and if those stars DO happen to leave, they will typically land in one of the top 5 markets (or a situation like Miami, which was unprecedented). Phoenix has only made one LANDMARK trade in its history that I can even recall, and that was Barkley. Even the Nash trade can’t be considered “landmark,” in my opinion, because no one could have imagined Two-Time would become Two-Time.

    There are things that I wish would have happened differently, but it’s not my style to sit in my chair and heavily criticize everyone involved when I don’t have intimate knowledge of the circumstances. It’s a lot more complicated than just saying, “We should have got that guy,” or “We shouldn’t have made that move,” in my opinion.

  • 82 Polish_fan // Dec 4, 2012 at 3:48 pm

    he has the same guys like Nash isnt it? But in stead of creating positioning for other players he firstly thinks about scoring or complicating the game in the offense than play a simple basketball. the suns are born to play run and gun fast games like in the conf finales

  • 83 m.i.milliman // Dec 4, 2012 at 6:54 pm

    @ Polish_fan. I’m not saying I disagree with you, but Dragic is a different player than Nash and they need a different system. But Gortat has to take on some of the blame because if he were as good as he says he is he’d be doing the other things to make the team better like rebounding and blocking shots, etc. But Dragic needs to improve his game too, no doubt.

  • 84 BCrayZ // Dec 5, 2012 at 2:47 pm

    That first comment Harry isn’t just mean.

    Down right evil.

    Play ball?

    Just know that it hurts to get hurt. That pain can be near unbearable.

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