Luis Scola, Argentina play Team USA tough but late comeback falls short

Posted by on July 22nd, 10:50 pm

Back when the original Dream Team wore the uniforms Team USA donned today in Spain, opponents were so in awe of the American stars that some even snapped photographs from the bench.

Now 20 years later the same could not exactly be said of Luis Scola and the Argentinian national team, which dropped an 86-80 exhibition decision to the Americans on Sunday.

Scola drew a number of fouls taking it right at Team USA and even got into a bit of a scuffle in which he got right into the face of Kevin Durant and then pushed LeBron James’ arm away. This is not a player who will back down from anybody, even the best players in the world.

Scola’s crafty game was on full display, and it was beautiful to watch him work with long-time national teammate Manu Ginobili in the two-man game. He made a handful of gorgeous passes to cutters as well.

The newest member of the Suns scored 14 points, grabbed six boards and dished four assists to almost lead Argentina back after Team USA jumped out to a 19-3 advantage behind sizzling starts from KD and Kobe. But Argentina kept battling, cutting the lead to five late in the first half.

The American always had another run in them, taking the lead back to 15 early in the fourth only to see Argentina cut it to four on a Ginobili three-point play with less than three minutes left. Durant and Chris Paul promptly buried triples to put the game out of reach.

“I think we competed, pretty much the whole game,” Scola told The Associated Press. “We started bad, we’ve been starting bad this whole preparation. That’s going to be a problem for us. We have to fix that and then they hit a lot of shots. Obviously they’re capable of hitting shots.”

That they did, particularly Durant, who dropped 27 and barely seemed to hit the net. However, if today was any indication, the Americans won’t exactly romp through group play like the original Dream Team did with a rematch against Scola and the Argentinians looming on Aug. 6.

Simmons high on Scola acquisition

Grantland’s Bill Simmons for one saw value in the Suns’ pickup of Scola, calling him “the best amnesty guy ever, by far — nobody else comes close.”

I loved the Scola pickup — not only was he totally overqualified for an amnesty auction and landed in one for fluky reasons, you just shouldn’t be able to land a big man who can score on the low post for $13.4 million over three years. Cleveland fans should be outraged that their team didn’t trump that Phoenix bid. Repeat: outraged.

Simmons even praised owner Robert Sarver for his offseason maneuverings, something I can’t remember ever happening.

To Phoenix owner Robert Sarver, who earned a rare compliment by doing the right thing with Nash, landing two no. 1s and two no. 2s and a whopping trade exception to boot (VotS Editor’s Note: The Suns did not receive a trade exception since they were under the cap). From there, they smartly snared Dragic at a fair price; amnestied Josh Childress to create cap room for Scola (double amnesty!), made a respectable max contract run at Eric Gordon (and earned Gordon’s “my heart belongs in Phoenix” quote), and took an $18 million flyer on Michael Beasley (who gives them much-needed offensive punch AND good fodder for Jared Dudley’s Twitter feed). If you’re looking for 2013′s underdog that overachieves by 12 wins because of chemistry and quirky/savvy offensive players, look no further than the 2012-13 Suns.

Scola on playing in the Olympics

Houston Chronicle Rockets reporter Jonathan Feigen dug this gem out of his notebook from Scola on Olympic play:

“I really like it. I think it’s fun. I love my country. I love my teammates. I think it’s very high level competition in the FIBA tournaments. You play and work to play with the best, at a high level. Those are good tournaments. I think it helps me, especially before I came to the NBA. For me, I lose shape really quick and take a long time to get it. I like to keep playing. I don’t think working out is better than a FIBA tournament. That’s the highest level of working out. I think summer is about getting better. The last reason, I think the Olympics is a huge experience, beyond basketball, beyond sports. It’s cultural. Global. Everyone loves. I got a chance to watch it, and compete in it, to be a first-hand spectator of all these amazing sports. And I see not only the sports, but the life of the sports. That’s huge. People would pay thousands of dollars for this experience and I get to be a part of it. Even if we didn’t have success in the past, I think the experience would be quite the same. Just the life of the village is a highlight, besides the games and winning and all that.”

Michael Schwartz founded ValleyoftheSuns in October 2008 and is the owner/editor emeritus of the site. He is currently working toward his MBA in sports business at San Diego State University.

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Tags: Luis Scola · Olympics · Phoenix Suns · Phoenix Suns News

86 responses so far ↓

  • 1 Scott // Jul 23, 2012 at 1:33 am

    Scola was a good pick up for the Suns. Too bad it is also coming in a year where the Suns lose both Nash and Hill; it could have been awesome last year.

    As far as the Olympics go, I think it’s good for NBA players to participate in the Olympics, because it raises their level of competition, it sharpens their competitive edge, and they learn how to be better players. You can’t beat it. When you consider who else is on the US team, for example, as well as the preparation and dedication of the opponents, the striving and inspiring stories of all the other athletes, plus the world’s focus, it’s the pinnacle of play.

    It’s like an All-Star tournament where winning really matters.

  • 2 Scott // Jul 23, 2012 at 1:40 am

    In other news … Houston has apparently forgotten there’s a limit to the number of players you can have on a team.

    In the recently completed trade of Courtney Lee to the Celtics, the Rockets acquired JaJuan Johnson, E’Twaun Moore, Sean Williams, and a 2nd round pick.

    Which means the Houston roster now numbers … infinity plus 1. ;)

  • 3 Scott // Jul 23, 2012 at 1:43 am

    The Suns should inquire if there’s anything the Rockets need in their attempt to complete the Howard trade, or whatever it is that they’re trying to do at this point.

    I’d still strongly consider a trade of Lopez plus a pick for Royce White and Chandler Parsons.

    (And yes, I’m still hoping the Suns will pick up Z. Dragic. The sheriff needs a deputy!)

  • 4 Greg // Jul 23, 2012 at 5:44 am

    Robin Lopez and a pick probably wouldnt land one of those two players let alone both of them. Parsons is a quality defender with offensive potential (Houston values him pretty highly) and White has a unique playing style that you just dont see from a 6-8 260 pounds body. Lopez isnt that valuable and neither is any of the Suns picks. Parsons maybe, White no way. The Suns dont have minutes for both of these players anyway. White and Parsons are two players that will need 15-25 mins each, and thats just not available in the Suns rotation at this point.

    21.3 MPG
    .241 FG%
    .143% 3PT%
    .769 FT%
    6.3 PPG
    2.3 RBPG
    1.3 APG
    1.2 Steals/pg

    These are the stats of a player, yes only 4 games, from the Las Vegas Summer League. These are Zoran Dragic’s stats.

    Yes, he is a nice talent. He does some nice things on the court. He is long, he is quick, he penetrates, athleticism, pesky defense etc. He has potential. But these stats, against far far inferior competition to the NBA talent he would be seeing in October, are absolutely horrid.

    I am not bashing your fascination with Zoran, I see a lot of his brother in him, which makes him intriguing. However, he is 2-4 years away from being NBA ready. Goran is 26, and has finally reached the beginning of his potential, Zoran is only 21 I believe.

    Goran was a 2nd round draft pick, Zoran was not selected at all. Undrafted. All 30 teams passed, including the Suns. The Suns dont have 3 or 4 years to wait around for Zoran. They didnt even wait for Goran now did they?

    Zoran would not make an impact of any kind this season other then potentially having a few games in garbage time blow-outs where he puts up 8 points against scrubs in the final 4 minutes and people will be calling for him to get more playing time.

    Bottom line is if his last name wasn’t Dragic these stats wouldnt even get a player looked at let alone signed onto an NBA roster. The thrill and potential of his last name cant wow you too much.

    Yes, the rocket summer league announcers had a man crush on him. Yes, he shows skills that can make him an NBA player, but right now he is so far away its comical to keep bringing him up as a realistic option for the Suns rotation. If they give him a 12th roster spot I wouldnt be disappointed, but he wont see any playing time of any importance.

    Scouts have had long looks at him, beyond these summer league games. Scouts can over look stats from a small sample, insignificant summer league, but they werent too impressed with his game prior to this summer either.

    Some team will take a chance on him, and in 2016 we will be lucky to see him as a contributor somewhere.

  • 5 Scott // Jul 23, 2012 at 6:17 am

    @Greg -

    You never know what teams will deal away and for what or why. You just try to make the trades that will make your team better.

    If the Rockets see themselves – after a trade or whatever – heavy on PFs and light on Cs, or if they believe they need yet another pick to seal a deal, then they might make the trade.

    They have enough players for 2 teams right now, IIRC, and they’re throwing away players with a higher PER than half the Suns. (Rockets waived Jon Leuer, PER 15.31, and the Cavs picked him up. Not a salary move either, as he made less than $500k, and not a roster move either, as they only had 17 at the time and are now at like 21.)

    Goran was a 2nd round pick because he was unknown. He tried out only for the Suns, and that was a secret tryout.

    The Suns bought the 2nd pick from the Spurs and asked them to select Dragic with the pick. I’m not sure what the rationale for using a pick on someone unknown is; I’d assume that instead you could just sign them as a free agent on a minimum contract and they’d still count as an exemption ….?

    Anyway, I see potential in Zoran, and he’d be one of the deep reserves selected for developmental purposes. So his game doesn’t have to be ready yet. It was the same deal with Jeremy Lin. It took him time between where he showed up in Summer League and when he was ready to take over a team. But he had talent right along.

    If the Suns are building for the future, they need to STOP using veterans for the deep reserves and START picking up promising young players who need maybe a year or two before they can really compete.

    Zoran is 23 and I think his main adjustments are to adapt from Euro styled play to NBA play. I think he needs to practice shooting the NBA 3, and he needs to practice playing against NBA players. I don’t think he’s that far out from being ready to go; certainly not 2-4 years.

    You keep offering the same analysis … that his stats are bad and no one would pay any attention to him if it wasn’t for his brother. My point, right along, has been that he plays smart and with energy, with good defensive intensity: much more so than other players in Summer League. He’ll pick up the rest, given an opportunity.

    At the same time, people keep recommending Marcus Landry for the Suns. Well … no one would pay attention to him if it wasn’t for his brother! Sure, he has better stats than Zoran, but he’s not going anywhere in the NBA. IMO, he’s already very close to his potential, and he’s just not going to get off any team’s bench – EVER – except due to injuries.

  • 6 steve // Jul 23, 2012 at 8:27 am

    Bill Simmons complimenting Sarver? I’m afraid the world will have ended by the end of the month, people. Hell has frozen over.

    I sure hope the Suns can be that surprise playoff team. The past couple years, I have no idea how Denver was as good as they have been, but they somehow get it done. I feel like this Suns team has the *potential* to steal the 4-6 seed if things work out between their recent acquisitions.

    Dragic – 17ppg
    Dudley – 13ppg
    Beasley – 20ppg
    Scola – 15ppg
    Gortat – 15ppg

    I think those are reasonable expectations as far as ppg goes for each of those guys. 80ppg for the starting five could put this team somewhere around the 105ppg mark. I don’t care how bad your defense is, if you score 105ppg, you’re going to win some games and be fun to watch. I can’t wait for November so all of us can stop guessing.

  • 7 Morgan McCoy // Jul 23, 2012 at 8:32 am

    So I just watched some you tube videos of Zoran. He’s basically a taller version of his brother, who does a good job of playing off the ball. The form of his jump shot is pretty good and fluid. He just needs to work on it a little more. I would have no problem giving him a invite to training camp and see what he can do. The guy does have a lot of potential, and he looks like he could a amazing defender on the wing. The guy plays 100% all game, which is huge in this league. If the suns signed him as a reserve and he played in the D-league a little he would benefit greatly. There are some great coaches down there that could help him develop his shot a little more and adjust to the NBA game.

  • 8 Greg // Jul 23, 2012 at 8:36 am

    I am not a fan of Landry either. I dont think he should make the Suns, and I personally have never been an advocate.

    And I dont see how Zoran isnt 2-4 years away when his brother didnt have a successful stretch of play until he was almost 26, and Goran was already experiencing NBA competition as a 22 year old… Zoran hasnt even started that learning curve yet and hes 23? If he is behind Goran as far as NBA experience goes, and it took Goran till he was almost 26….see my point?

    You mention he needs to learn to shoot the NBA 3…he needs to learn how to shoot any type of 3, actually any type of long range shot. He has been an awful shooter in Europe. Obviously room to improve, but he is far off from where his brother was at 23.

    I agree with you on many things. He can be a deep bench guy that they slowly develop, but they cant afford to give him the minutes he needs, which is what happened to Goran. Two different people, but I am just stating the similarities/differences in their development.

    4 years may be long, i thought he was little younger, but regardless if he is 23 now, and he probably wont be ready till 25 or 26, that is still 2 or 3 years until he is a real factor. As mentioned, I think Goran is/was a better prospect at the same stage in their careers.

    As i said, you make quality points, i just disagree on some of the details. A rebuilding team needs young talent that can be future pieces to a successful team. However, the Suns arent your typical rebuilding team, which we all know. Maintaining/rebuilding is tough to do. The Suns, already flooded with youngsters (Goran, Beasley, Marhsall, Morris) actually needs veterans in deep bench roles to help their process and aid in their experience as young players. Throwing more young guys into a group of young guys that need to learn themselves will not help the PHX Suns. Zoran could be a really nice player one day, but just my opinion, thats years away still.

  • 9 Greg // Jul 23, 2012 at 8:38 am

    @ Steve. Steal a 4-6 seed? No, they are trying to steal the 8 seed.

  • 10 Morgan McCoy // Jul 23, 2012 at 8:38 am

    Also I just read a rumor that Barbosa doesn’t want to return to the Pacers. He’s rumored to be possible coming back here. I know he’s 29, but this guy still can fly and play. I wouldn’t mind seeing Redd come back to be the back up sg, but if we could get Barbosa to return to be the back up sg I think would be ideal. I really think Gentry is going to want the suns to be more agressive this year on offense and push the tempo. Barbosa would be perfect for that.

  • 11 Greg // Jul 23, 2012 at 8:41 am

    A one year, cheap Barbosa deal would be a nice scoring addition. Just keep in mind Barbosa and Brown, one would always been on the floor. And both are poor defensively, but Barbosa defensively is like playing 5 on 4.

  • 12 steve // Jul 23, 2012 at 8:52 am


    You read correctly. Steal a 4-6 seed. Getting the 8 seed wouldn’t be a surprise for this team. The 8-seed usually takes somewhere around 45 wins to snag.

    I think the floor for this team is around 35 wins, and the absolute ceiling is about 15-20 games higher than the floor (which seems like a lot, but that’s really just a handful or two of close games swinging the right way). 50 wins is good enough, in many years, to get the 6-spot, and if they squeezed out 52-55, they’re in there for the 2-4.

    Obviously, I don’t believe that’s going to happen. I wouldn’t bet on it. But I wouldn’t put it outside the realm of possibility, and neither would Vegas.

    If this Suns squad can squeak out 12 more wins than they “should,” as Simmons suggest, they could very well be in the hunt for the 4-6 spot. And if things go *extremely* well for them all season long, a 2009-10 run could be in the books.

  • 13 leminade // Jul 23, 2012 at 9:02 am

    @steve, what have you been smoking, man???

  • 14 Morgan McCoy // Jul 23, 2012 at 9:02 am

    Brown is actually a good defender when he’s locked in. At the end of last season Telfair and Brown were a really good defensive back court. They just didn’t let up. Barbosa tries to play D, but his problem bigger guys out muscle him. We all remember what Kobe did to him in the postseason years ago. He just posted him up every time and out muscled him. Barbosa is good at playing the passing lanes and can create transition baskets and fast breaks.

  • 15 PennyAnd1 // Jul 23, 2012 at 9:03 am


    I agree. I’m really excited about the addition of Scola. I’m looking forward to seeing Gortat & Scola beating up the boards, and it really is too bad he came where Nash & Hill left. I bet Nash would’ve love to play with Scola, who is just as good of a rebounder that Marcin Gortat is. The only difference? Scola is smarter and can catch the ball. It really is too bad.

    Scola > Gortat

  • 16 Morgan McCoy // Jul 23, 2012 at 9:05 am

    What Greg is saying Scott that this team has a lot of scoring potential. If this team plays fast pace and gels they can easily average 105pg. Most teams cant handle that. If they can play adequate team defense and score to their potential they can make the postseason. As of right now I think the team will barely miss the playoffs like last year or somehow slip in between the 6-8.

  • 17 PennyAnd1 // Jul 23, 2012 at 9:09 am

    I disagree, I think Suns will get in somewhere around the 6 seed. BUT there is a big question mark, depending on Brown and what part he’ll be in this season. I’m hoping he’ll be involved in a smaller part.

    @Morgan McCoy
    It’s really too bad that Brown only plays good defense in some parts of the game, not the whole 48 minutes. Brown does this Brown does that, yeah yeah..what you don’t get about Brown is his style. He yells too much causing confusion & panic, and he just doesn’t know how to read the flow of the game. FACE IT! He’s a show(ball)-stopper!

  • 18 Morgan McCoy // Jul 23, 2012 at 9:36 am

    I’m just saying we could have worse defenders at the 2 than Brown. If Brown is attempting to play D I’m happy. That is the reason why I didn’t want Crawford, because the guy doesn’t play a lick of D. I’ve said in the best I’m not the biggest Brown supporter, but we could have worse options playing the 2. Who knows maybe he won’t start, because knowing Dudley he isn’t just going to roll over and give up his starting spot to Brown or Beasley. That is why I can’t wait for training camp, because their is going to be some position battles.

  • 19 steve // Jul 23, 2012 at 9:38 am


    How is that disagreeing, really? I said they’re capable of stealing the 4-6 (although I don’t think it’s likely at all), depending on a lot of conditions. You said you think they’ll get in somewhere around the 6, depending on Brown’s involvement (and I agree, the more the Suns keep Brown off the floor, the better they’ll be, haha).

  • 20 Andy // Jul 23, 2012 at 9:49 am

    Saying “as Simmons suggests” they might steal a four seed, when the column you are referring to includes the lines : “Will they [the Suns] make the playoffs? No!!!!!!!!!! Not in a million years. But they’ll be fun to watch. ” seems a tad disingenuous.

  • 21 steve // Jul 23, 2012 at 9:52 am

    I didn’t say Simmons suggested they could steal the four seed. When did I say that?

    I said, “If this Suns squad can squeak out 12 more wins than they ‘should,’ as Simmons suggests.” Simmons did, in fact, suggest that when he said, “If you’re looking for 2013?s underdog that overachieves by 12 wins because of chemistry and quirky/savvy offensive players, look no further than the 2012-13 Suns.”

    I’m failing to see the point of your reply.

  • 22 Andy // Jul 23, 2012 at 9:53 am

    For funsies, I am proud to present: The Argument: A Play in Two Acts by Bill Simmons (all quotes drawn from the same article referenced above)

    Bill: “… Phoenix owner Robert Sarver, earned a rare compliment by doing the right thing [this offseason]”
    Mr. Simmons: But “… Will they make the playoffs? No!!!!!!!!!! Not in a million years. But they’ll be fun to watch.”
    Bill: Come on! “If you’re looking for 2013′s underdog that overachieves by 12 wins because of chemistry and quirky/savvy offensive players, look no further than the 2012-13 Suns.”
    Mr. Simmons: Sure, but “You can’t win the title without a top-10 player… — in a 30-team league, you either want to bottom out or contend, but you can’t be in the middle.”
    Bill: “…hell”

  • 23 Jason A. // Jul 23, 2012 at 9:57 am

    @Steve, that’s funny, last night I was thinking the exact same thing about our scoring. I think you might be a hair optimistic about how high the ppg will be but I think you’re close. Even if we average 73 from our starters that’s a big number. Why can’t Dragic score 17? Beasley could step up and score 20 ppg. I think Gortat’s ave will fall but the rest are solid. I can’t wait for training camp.

  • 24 steve // Jul 23, 2012 at 10:08 am

    @ Andy – And I misrepresented Simmons’s words how? Again, I’m failing to see your point in replying.

    @ Jason A. – I know it depends a lot on how these guys work together and how many shots there are to go around. Those numbers were on the “optimistic” side of things, as I noted by qualifying them with the word “potential,” but they’re not outside of these players’ capabilities. Dudley put up 13 last year, Scola 16, Gortat 15, Beasley has put up 19 before, and I can’t be certain about Dragic’s scoring numbers when he was handed the reins, but I thought I remembered hearing 16 for him once he had the starter minutes in Houston.

    If they jell, I think 80 is *possible* for that starting 5 (if that’s even what the starting 5 will be). A number like 73 might be more likely, though, you’re right.

  • 25 Andy // Jul 23, 2012 at 10:09 am

    The point is that by putting his projected win total at “no chance of making the playoffs”, its very clear that Simmons’ “12 more wins than expected” is not meant to apply to an expectation of 45 or so wins. Applying his quote to a “should” of winning 12 more wins than a borderline playoff team is not only out of context, it is actually excluded as his meaning a few sentences later. If that’s your opinion, fine, but Simmons’ FULL statement obviously not only doesn’t imply it, it actually EXCLUDES it. Hence, disingenuous. Hence, the point of my post.

  • 26 Ty-Sun // Jul 23, 2012 at 10:18 am

    Regardless of all the speculation I liked what I saw in Scola during the game. And hopefully Gortat will actually use the opportunity to learn some of Scola’s post moves.

  • 27 steve // Jul 23, 2012 at 10:20 am

    And I never suggested Simmons thought the Suns would make the playoffs. I said Simmons thought the Suns would overacheive.

    Whatever we each thought would be the baseline of success to be expected for the Suns in 2012-13 is irrelevant and complete conjecture anyway (which is why I put “should” in quotation marks in the first place).

    I never once suggested Simmons thought the Suns would make the playoffs, and quite frankly, I don’t see how my comment you’re making such a fuss about could be seen as “lacking in candor; also: giving a false appearance of simple frankness” (the definition of disingenuous).

    Do you want the last word?

  • 28 Tim from British Columbia // Jul 23, 2012 at 10:30 am

    I am excited about Luis Scola coming to the Suns and he has said how much he likes playing with Dragic. They will be a great combo and the Suns offence will improve alot next season. Scola is an agressive kind of player who is what the Suns needed for the past couple of years. I also think that they should make a move to land Barbossa again. Although not the best defensive player, he is great the fast breaks and still makes some nice threes at time. Go Suns!

  • 29 jeremiehawkins614 // Jul 23, 2012 at 10:36 am

    for you guy’s saying the suns want make the playoffs you are stupid this team is already better then last years besides the loss of nash dragic will feel that roll just fine beasley will show everybody that he still got it and scola as well ass gortat will be a force under the basket our bench is very nice as well this team should make the playoffs with no problem

  • 30 Andrew // Jul 23, 2012 at 10:36 am

    Has anybody heard anything about re-signing Lopez? Hopefully we can sign, and trade for a decent sg. Or maybe package Warwick, Frye, and Telfair for one?

  • 31 jeremiehawkins614 // Jul 23, 2012 at 10:41 am

    that dosent sound like a bad ideal even though i still think frye helps us he stretches the floor and his defense has gotten better over the last couple of years he would be monster for us at tha back up 5 spot they wouldnt be able to hold him

  • 32 Andrew // Jul 23, 2012 at 10:48 am

    That’s how I feel about Frye as well, and I would rather Lopez go. It just seems we could get a better return from two expiring contracts, and an above avgerage backup center(Frye) than for RLopez.

  • 33 jeremiehawkins614 // Jul 23, 2012 at 10:54 am

    cant argue wit that frye does have more value then lopez i just wish lopez was as good as he should be its crazy that he’s not

  • 34 Wilson // Jul 23, 2012 at 10:57 am

    @ steve: Because you’re taking Simmons completely out of context. 100% out of context. His baseline for how many games the Suns’ talent will win and yours are completely different and for you to imply this is not the case is indeed disingenuous. It may not have been intentional, but it can certainly read that way.

    I don’t for a second believe Simmons would say Phoenix could squeak out twelve more wins than what YOU think they should win; it’s much easier to go from 20 wins to 32 wins than it is to go from 40 to 52. Quoting him out of context lends credibility to your assertion though – hence, disingenuous.

  • 35 steve // Jul 23, 2012 at 11:10 am


    “If this Suns squad can squeak out 12 more wins than they “should,” they could very well be in the hunt for the 4-6 spot.”

    Are you yahoos happy?

    Simmons did zero statistical analysis in that appraisal of the ’12-’13 season. The overachieving by 12 wins statement was clearly thrown out on a whim, and if anyone was given time to think about it, I’m sure no one in their right mind would think this Suns squad will be “expected” to win anything less than 30 games, and I would guess that most sensible preseason expectations will be somewhere in the range of 33-35.

    Add 12 to that and it becomes 45-47, which will earn a playoff spot more often than not (and Simmons, being a betting man, would most definitely take 1,000,000:1 odds on the Suns making the playoffs. Anyone would throw down a few bucks on that).

    If Simmons had been thinking about what he said, he probably would take back his 12 wins statement. As it stands, I don’t think it’s lacking any sort of candor for me to say that overachieving by 12 wins could result in a playoff team.

    Simmons’ comments were FILLED with overexaggeration, and you guys are simply taking his words too literally, and Andy, you’re simply focused on hunting down a guy you’re holding a grudge against (even though you said you would be ignoring me).

  • 36 Greg // Jul 23, 2012 at 11:27 am

    Hoping for a 7 or 8 seed is the goal right now. This team has the talent/potential to be pretty decent. However, the West is stacked. New Orleans, Houston, Sacremento, are the only for sure teams I dont see fighting for a playoff spot. There are also, the Lakers, Spurs, Thunder, Memphis who are for sure, no doubt, going to be in the playoffs. So that leaves 8 teams for the final 4 spots in the West.

    As the team stands now, Denver, Dallas, Clippers are all ahead of the Suns. Golden State, if healthy, can be a very good team, ahead of the Suns talent wise. So are the Timberwolves in my opinion.

    Regardless of what happens, pure talent wise, the Suns are not in the playoffs. But the continued confidence of Goran (an undetermined factor) which Michael Beasley we get (undetermined) the steps Shannon as made to improve his offensive awareness and defense (unknow) and maybe we see another decline in Scola? His stats did show a drop from 10-11 to 11-12. And maybe Gortat isnt the same guy without Nash (even tho no offensive player can be the exact same without Nash). Does Morris take a step forward? Is Marshall a second unit PG or does Sebastian maintain that role? How will Dudley be used exactly? When exactly does Frye come back? Will we have enough 3 point shooting? These are all tough questions we have no way of answering now.

    A lot of question marks. In my opinion, a 7 or an 8 seed is nice success for the Suns, and should not at all be expected. As mentioned, in my opinion, there are 10+ teams that exceed the Suns on paper, but who knows how all of these unanswered questions will turn out.

  • 37 Greg // Jul 23, 2012 at 11:29 am

    PLUS*: Chemistry could take a month or two to fully develop, which could mean a sub-par record in the first two months or so. Two months of sub-par play will not get you into the playoffs in the West. Year 2 a playoff lock is more certain/expected then this upcoming season.

  • 38 steve // Jul 23, 2012 at 11:53 am

    And to defend my “33-35 wins” statement, here are some WS numbers:

    Dragic 11-12: 5.1 (only 28 games a starter, not sure what his WS48 was as a starter to prorate that to 82 games, so this number will be low) translates to 6.3 WS in an 82 game season.
    Dudley: 5.1 -> 6.3
    Beasley (let’s use his last season as a starter for a baseline since that’s likely to be the role he’ll fill here) 1.7 -> 2.1
    Scola: 3.4 -> 4.2
    Gortat: 7.6 -> 9.4

    Frye: 3.7 -> 4.6 (won’t be here for half the season, though, so cut that to 2.3)
    Brown: 1.6 -> 2.0
    Telfair: 1.1 -> 1.4
    Morris: 1.5 -> 1.9
    Lopez: 2.1 -> 2.6
    Warrick: 0.5 -> 0.6

    Add those all up, and what do you get? 39 wins already. Throw in 1 for Marshall, you’re at 40.

    Obviously, WS isn’t perfect, but it’s a very important tool “experts” use to make projections. This Suns team, as composed, will probably be “expected” to win 35-40 games.

    I had no clue whatsoever how that would turn out when I started this, but I’m not surprised it lined up with my thinking.

  • 39 Andrew // Jul 23, 2012 at 11:58 am

    I imagine the FO will be done making any more major moves though . They will probably re-sign Lopez, add another one year contract for depth. Then let guys kinda fight for playing time, and maybe increase certain players trade value. By the trade deadline we should know who is in contention or not, and make moves based on our playoff chances.

  • 40 Jason A. // Jul 23, 2012 at 12:23 pm


    I think we can get ahead of #6 Dallas, #7 Denver, and #8 Utah but we’ll see. Portland will probably improve as well as GS. And I wouldn’t rule out Min and NO automatically. If Gordon is as good as we thought he was, maybe he’ll get them to the playoffs.

  • 41 steve // Jul 23, 2012 at 12:26 pm

    My bad, beasley would stay at 1.7, but the total win shares would stay the same either way.

    And again, I know that’s not a perfect system, but generally the total WS of a team will be within a few of the team’s actual wins.

    For instance, last year the Suns had 32.5 WS, and they had 33 wins. The Spurs had 48.5 WS, 50 wins. The Pacers had 41.4 WS, 42 wins. Atlanta had 41.9 WS, 40 wins. I could go on, and I’m sure the pattern would be consistent. Those are the first four teams I randomly selected, and their WS and win totals are very close.

    I don’t see much of a reason for the “expected” win total of this team to be anything less than 35.

  • 42 Greg // Jul 23, 2012 at 12:33 pm

    I said Minnesota is ahead of us, Rubio Roy Love Williams Pekovic…that team looks better then ours. Eric Gordon is good, not that good. the Hornets have nothing after Gordon, Davis, and Anderson. I wouldnt put them ahead of the Suns.

    Dirk, VC, Marion, Kaman, Mayo, Collison, Brand…I think Mavs are ahead of us. GS: Curry, Thompson, Barnes,Lee, Bogut…that team can be so dangerous if Curry and Bogut are healthy. Utah is a team on the rise led by jefferson and milsap, two really good players in this league.

    Denver, no way. they are good and very talented.

    So you think if we are ahead of 6 7 8 that we will be the 5 seed?

    No way. if you project last year to 82 games, 49-33 is the 5 seed. Year before it took 46 wins to get the 7 and 8 seed. The Suns, with the West the way it is, will need atleast 44 wins to even be in the playoff conversation.

  • 43 Jason A. // Jul 23, 2012 at 12:37 pm

    @Greg, no way we’re a 5 seed, doubtful a 6 seed, possibly a 7 seed, and a decent shot to make #8. but by no means am I suggesting we’re a playoff team for sure. It will be really interesting around here come October.

  • 44 Greg // Jul 23, 2012 at 12:40 pm

    you said you think we can get ahead of #6, 7 and 8, which means you think we can be #5 i thought lol

  • 45 Jason A. // Jul 23, 2012 at 12:42 pm

    I meant we’d be the #6 seed ahead of Dallas but I reconsidered and conceded that Dallas is better than us. So really we’re either a 7 or 8 seed, or 9-10.

  • 46 Greg // Jul 23, 2012 at 12:48 pm

    October cant get here soon enough.

  • 47 PennyAnd1 // Jul 23, 2012 at 1:48 pm


    Gortat’s scoring number will definitely go down now that Steve is gone and most important, Suns have better scoring options in Goran, Beasley, and Scola. I prefer it to stay that way too. Gortat was babied by Nash. Besides, Gortat is there for one purpose and that is defense.

  • 48 Russell // Jul 23, 2012 at 2:31 pm

    I don’t agree about Gortat scoring going down, at least not by a lot. This team still lacks offense and I can see his FG% going down a few points to 52-53% but I think he will take more shots and still get his. I don’t see any reason for less than 14-15pts 11 rebounds a game from Gortat .

    Dragic averaged close to 18 pts 9 assists a game as a starter for Houston. 9 assists is very very good. Expect players to get their points just don’t expect the FG% to be as high. I don’t think Dragic will avg 18, but he should get 15-16pts and 8-9 assists a game.

  • 49 Russell // Jul 23, 2012 at 2:32 pm

    @Penny also expect Gortats FT % to go up to what it was in 2010-2011 (73%) over last years (64%).

  • 50 Russell // Jul 23, 2012 at 2:39 pm

    Realistically I think this is how the starters will do:

    Gortat: 14.5pts 11 rebounds
    Dragic: 15.5pts 8.5 assists
    Dudley: 12.5 pts 4.5 rebounds
    Scola: 14.2pts 8 rebounds
    Beasley: 19pts 7rebounds

  • 51 Ty-Sun // Jul 23, 2012 at 2:40 pm

    Gortat’s scoring numbers could actually go up this season. Why? Last year Nash and Gortat were the only consistent scoring threats the Suns had. This year they have Gortat, Beasley, Scola and Dragic. It’s a lot easier to plan your defense to stop two players than four. I’m not saying that is what I expect to happen but it could just as easily go that way as the other.

    And I’m not going to even try to predict how many games this team will win this season or whether they will make the playoffs or what seed they might make if they do. There are just way too many unknowns this year with this team AND one thing I’m sure everyone can agree on is that an injury to a key player on any team can change the course of the team’s season. If the Suns stay healthy and another team or two has one of those kind of injuries then the Suns’ playoff outlook could increase.

    The thing I really like about this team is that it has a lot of potential. Hopefully they will live up to it but we’ll just have to wait and see once the season actually starts.

  • 52 PennyAnd1 // Jul 23, 2012 at 3:41 pm


    Did you forget those brain popping unnecessary fade-aways he did last season? The only reason he had a higher % was because like I said, Nash babied him the ball with accurate passing JUST because he couldn’t catch! I remember those easy shots he missed, and not taking advantages of mismatches. MAN! Gortat put so much stress on Nash, and I personally think it’s the reason why Nash left!

    Most important, Gortat has a low IQ for the game, and easily gets depress affecting the team as a whole if things don’t go his way. He undid everything concerning what it means to be a Suns player (calm, cool & collective). He shamed the Suns, thank God Nash made him look cool.

    So back to my point, I hope Gortat stays away from trying too much offensively, and just go with what the defense gives him. This time when he makes a mistake, he won’t have Nash coming up to him and say ‘it’s ok keep trying’. This time he’ll have guys who won’t tolerate with his dumba$$ plays in Scola, Dragic, & Beasley. These guys will really let him know it if he keeps playing dumb.

    Oh, and his free throw & better get high. Suns should’ve won more games, and made it to the playoffs last season if it wasn’t for his missed free throws that mattered in critical moments. The problem with Gortat last year was that knowing he sucked at free throw, he purposely got fouled in crucial times rather than giving it to the hands of the open man or what. I was surprised Nash, Hill & Dudley didn’t get a heart-attack. Gortat Sux offensively plain & simple.

    If Gortat & Brown just play into their strength and not do too much, Suns will be in good condition. Let the smart guys be the active players.

  • 53 Greg // Jul 23, 2012 at 6:43 pm

    the reason nash left?? thats a little harsh and out of line lol

  • 54 Greg // Jul 23, 2012 at 7:11 pm

    just because Gortat is my boy, he shot 68% from line in the last month. in their last 6 losses he was 10-14 from the line….doesnt sound like a guy who cost his team with free throws….and he didnt go to the line in many critical moments….he went to the line less then 4 times a game, and he had 4 games over 10 more free throws, so he shot less then 3 free throws most nights…actually, did some tallys, Gortat was better from the free throw line in losses….he shot 68% in losses, which is better then his 62% in wins….68% is the league average for centers that played 25 mins plus per game, so he didnt hurt the suns, comparatively to other centers….im sure he isnt the reason the suns didnt make the playoffs, maybe that was because they weren’t that good….If it wasnt for Gortat they wouldnt have been anywhere near the 8 seed. find someone else to blame…

    please use some factual basis or stats when you rip on the POLISH HAMMER!

    also, ill admit, gortat struggled down the stretch, only scoring 13 ppg, far less then any other month. However, shorter season, condensed schedule, less off nights. It was his first year starting, and by far the most minutes he has ever played in a season, which is alot on a center when there are less off nights.

    Gortat’s the MAN

  • 55 PennyAnd1 // Jul 23, 2012 at 11:17 pm


    No offense, but like I said stats don’t tell the whole story. There were many critical situation where Gortat played a vital role in the loss. He played the role because he either didn’t make the extra pass, missed easy lay-ups (the GUY don’t want to dunk hence the nickname Polish softener), missed important FTs (~10 games Suns should’ve won if Gortat converted his FTs), or just couldn’t FREAKIN’ catch! Plus he put his head down alot when he gets beat off the dribble not going back in time to play the offense or defense (he lets his emotion get the best out of him).

    Let’s just say this: Suns look much better with Amare leading the offense in a losing game compared to Gortat running the offense with a losing game. With Amare atleast he looked like he knows what he was doing (high bball IQ), compared to what Gortat does on the offensive end of the game (dumb plays High Blood Nash). Didn’t you see how frustrated Nash was throughout the season? I’ve never seen Nash so frustrated in my entire life watching him. That’s why it’s too bad Nash had to leave when Scola came along, Scola would’ve made it easier for him.

    Again, I’m not hating on Gortat he’s a nice dude n’ all. But dude was a weak mentality and just doesn’t know how to read plays. I will always remember Gortat as the player in orlando where he actually defense against his own man going for the lay-up. Sometimes I don’t know where his head goes. nuff said. I’d rather take Amare’s low % game with a winning record compared to Gortat’s high % game with a losing record. Isn’t it what it’s all about? Winning?

  • 56 PennyAnd1 // Jul 23, 2012 at 11:23 pm


    If you don’t believe me, look for past articles about Gortat being criticize for not dunking the ball & doing fade-aways when nobody was

    Or how about the article where Gortat just can’t make his FTs.

    I got fed up with Gortat not able to learn from a game and applying it to the next. Seriously, I think it’s of the reasons why Nash left.

  • 57 PennyAnd1 // Jul 23, 2012 at 11:37 pm

    I got two videos to contrast Amare & Gortat

    Amare gets crowds involve and intimidates opponents, doesn’t back down, finishes strong:

    Gortat, good defense, easy shots, makes shots look harder than it should be, clumsy and has no body control:

  • 58 Greg // Jul 24, 2012 at 5:22 am

    dude pennyand1, i went back and looked at every losses free throws last night and there was not anywhere near 10 games because of his free throws! thats the biggest joke statement with no statistical basis ive ever heard. you reach far to puil that one out. a guy that goes to the line less then 3 or 4 times a game cannot blow you 10 games at the free throw line.

    and amare does not have a low percentage game haha. hes a career 53% shooter and until last year he was over 50% every year. With the Suns he had field goal percentages of 56% 58% 59%54% and 56% his last 5 seasons in PHX. with the Knicks he has dipped to 50% and 48%, but you cant really begin to say he is a low percentage player….

    you act like the Suns picked Gortat over Amare or something… and ofcourse its about winning, and the Suns couldnt win with Amare because he didnt play defense either….but its dumb for you to even compare Gortat and Amare. thats not really a hard comparison to analyze….plus, Suns werent very good outside of Nash and Gortat, thats why they didnt win games. not because of Gortat. you are trying to shoulder 10 games on one person???so the suns should have been 43 and 23? lol thats the most ridiculous thing i have ever heard….Important free throws? lol your argument makes me laugh. he shot 65% from the line…lets say he shoots 75%…thats good for any center.

    he made 2.5 of 3.8 in the season
    10% increase puts him at
    2.9 of 3.8!!! where is the ten games?? The suns had alot more going wrong for them then Gortat’s mistakes. The Suns had no number one scoring option, no players that could penetrate and attack the rim. Heck, if it wasnt for Gortat, Suns would have been awful. absolutely horrid. but you sit here and claim he is the cost of 10 games? you have lost all my respect with your factless claims.

    Gortat only had 1.4 turnovers per game, so i dont know where he his not smart and doesnt catch?

    If Gortat did everything you said he did wrong. he would shoot 68% instead of 56% from the field and hed shoot 85% from the line instead of 65% and he would score 25 points per game….

    stats dont lie, he helped the suns. your expectations are unrealistic for any player.

    Durant only shot 49.5%??? wow if it wasnt for some of his bad/missed shots Thunder would have won the title!

    10 games…lol

  • 59 Greg // Jul 24, 2012 at 5:23 am

    and i dont care about your dumb videos i never made an amare comparison you did lol

  • 60 PennyAnd1 // Jul 24, 2012 at 11:11 am


    I didn’t put up the videos to compare Amare & Gortat, I put them up to see how each one impacts the team. Trust me I remember those FTs man, I was pulling my hair. There is just something about Gortat you don’t see. He acts & talks like he’s been a Suns for a long time complaining whining and acting like he’s number 1. He should just stay humble and get better in every games. Like I said, he undid everything what Amare, Nash, Hill and 05-09 Suns players worked hard for in putting up a standard what it means to be a Suns. Face it Gortat sucks. You can’t deny his stupid shot selection and his dumbheaded plays unless of course you a Gortat fan which you claimed you are. So there’s no point in arguing with you.

  • 61 PennyAnd1 // Jul 24, 2012 at 11:14 am


    Yeah, Gortat should’ve had 70% FG if he just executed right. That’s why I put up the videos! Quit blinding yourself will you. Amare had tougher defenders on him compared to Gortat. Just check out the video to make it easier on you. Easy missed shots and missed FTs did it for Nash & the Suns last season. nuff said.

  • 62 PennyAnd1 // Jul 24, 2012 at 11:22 am

    And 1 more
    Like I said stats don’t tell the whole story. Gortat’s low Turnovers per game is low in %, because he gave it to Nash by not catching it, hence Nash got the turnover. Man what were you watching last season?! That’s why Nash would leave too.

    And what has Gortat’s defense did for the Suns? oh yeah two seasons not making it in the playoffs. lol Oh and Durant is a proven scorer, that’s his job! Gortat’s job is defense & rebounding! That’s my point! he should stay to his strength and let the shooters do the shooting! Why the f*ck would he do a fade-away when there was no freakin’ defender! explain that!lol

  • 63 Greg // Jul 24, 2012 at 11:57 am

    no one in the entire league shoots 70%, so just stop lol. Dwight Howard and Andrew Bynum suck too right??

    Check Gortats PER….that will tell you if he sucks….you are ridiculous lol.

    Im not saying he shouldnt have faded away sometimes, and im not saying he didnt make mistakes. but to say he “sucks”?

    if you want to say he isnt as good as some fans think, then i will allow you to be entitled to your opinion, but if you legit think he sucks, you are clueless lol. 21 PER. Statistically he is top 5/6 center in the league….

    You can say thats a product of Nash, but 21 is extremely good…you cant do that if you arent a quality player. Gortat does not “suck” he just may not be “as good” as the stats show.

    Nash’s turnover stats were nearly identical to every other year for the past 6 seasons….i guess thats Gortats fault too??

    So if Gortat wasnt on the team Nash would of had only 1 or 2 turnovers a game?

    Just because you have some distinct memories of Gortat missing easy shots, missing free throws, or dropping passes, does not mean he is a bad player lol.

    i am not blind, you are just being extremely unfair and unrealistic. who would you prefer at center ?

    keep in mind, alot of big men have poor hands, thats what happens when you are damn near 7 feet tall.

  • 64 Greg // Jul 24, 2012 at 12:00 pm

    Gortat shot 72% at the rim….4th best in league. behind Chandler, Howard, Bynum….so you think he should have shot 85% at the rim?? he should have been the best by far??

  • 65 PennyAnd1 // Jul 24, 2012 at 12:01 pm

    Well he doesn’t suck all that much. Given the easy shot opportunity that was given to him, Amare woould’ve reached 70% ill tell you that.
    But Gortat is good in defense & rebounding no doubt. But he totally suX when it comes to being him as the number 1 man for scoring and he sux for having a low bball IQ for the game.

  • 66 Greg // Jul 24, 2012 at 12:03 pm

    lol and stop saying thats why Nash left. we didnt want him back and didnt offer him a deal so please just stop. you are making yourself look really unintelligent because you have a hatred for gortat.

  • 67 Greg // Jul 24, 2012 at 12:04 pm

    Amare would have reach 70%%%%%% hahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahhahahhahahaha considering 59% is his career high and he also played with Nash for alot longer….

  • 68 Greg // Jul 24, 2012 at 12:05 pm

    and i never said he should be the number 1 option…he became the number 1 option by default last year because they had no one else….so instead of saying he cost them 10 games, you should appreciate we even had him or we would have been 20 and 46

  • 69 Greg // Jul 24, 2012 at 12:06 pm

    ok not quite that bad, but you get my point

  • 70 Greg // Jul 24, 2012 at 12:06 pm

    oh im sorry, i misread your amare quote

  • 71 PennyAnd1 // Jul 24, 2012 at 12:08 pm

    We will really see how good Gortat is this season. With Nash gone, and more help at the offensive end. We will see the IQ of the man.

    Will he do too much with the ball beyond his limits? Will he stick to rebound & defense? Will he hog the ball and do fade-aways or will he make the simple extra pass? Will Goran give him more chances if he keeps dropping the ball? will his FT % increase? let’s just hope he proves me wrong because the mentality should be a team win, not an individual win concerning stats if that’s what you & Gortat is concerned about. We will see. Until then, let’s postpone this conversation.

  • 72 Greg // Jul 24, 2012 at 12:09 pm

    and no, amare did not shoot 70% at the rim…i check the stats….he shot 67 and 65% last two seasons with the Suns, and he dunked wayyyy more then Gortat….meaning….Amare missed more “easy shots” because he also took 2 more shots per game at the rim then gortat…meaning Amare missed significantly more baskets inside that Marcin Gortat….and Nash was even better 2 or 3 years ago

  • 73 PennyAnd1 // Jul 24, 2012 at 12:10 pm

    Suns were foolish to let Nash go. You’ll see what Nash can do in LA land. And yeah, if Amare had those same easy look that was presented to Gortat by Nash, he definitely would’ve broke records going 70 % or more.

  • 74 PennyAnd1 // Jul 24, 2012 at 12:12 pm

    like I said, stats don’t tell the whole story.

  • 75 Greg // Jul 24, 2012 at 12:12 pm

    btw….gortat was 14th in usage rate for starting centers….so it doesnt sound like he was a guy being concerned with stats or else he would have had a way higher usage rate and took way more shots.

  • 76 Greg // Jul 24, 2012 at 12:13 pm

    when did Amare not have those easy looks nash gave him?? Nash played with Amare too in the same pickn roll offense….

  • 77 Greg // Jul 24, 2012 at 12:14 pm

    and i dont need to see what Nash can do in LA lol hes the best offensive creator the league has ever seen, i never argued about that

  • 78 steve // Jul 24, 2012 at 12:15 pm


    Amare had his chance at those same shots, and he didn’t do it. History has spoken.

    If you’re going to argue Amare was taking more difficult shots, then why wasn’t Amare smart enough to get easier shots? Aren’t you arguing Amare’s bball IQ is better than Gortat’s? Then why does Gortat, with the same exact PG, put himself in position to get easier buckets than Amare did?

    I’m not trying to pick on you, but your position is weak on this one. It’s time to give it up. It’s ridiculous to argue that something that has already happened and had a chance to run its course could have happened any different than it did. If Amare could have shot a higher percentage, then he would have.

  • 79 Greg // Jul 24, 2012 at 12:19 pm

    thank you Steve jeez
    stats done lie.
    like i said, amare dunked way more, which should be made 99% of the time…Amare dunked 208 times and only made 67%…that means he dunked almost 3 times per game, but then missed enough shots to shoot 5% less then Gortat….

    stats do tell the whole story. you are wrong.

  • 80 PennyAnd1 // Jul 24, 2012 at 12:57 pm

    @Steve & Greg

    Amare was a scorer it is his job, same thing with Durant. Those guys get double- triple- teamed, and are forced to make their offensive plays hence a lower % rate. Their offense comes harder compare to what Gortat gets. Gortat isn’t or wasn’t forced to score but he did it anyways, hence the low IQ. don’t you guys get it? get a grip.

  • 81 PennyAnd1 // Jul 24, 2012 at 1:00 pm

    That’s why Gortat sux because he don’t know how to play the game not sticking to where his strength is knowing his weakness and learning from it. The team’s success this season will depend on how well the team will gel this season. Suns was all about ca·ma·ra·de·rie. Without Nash & Hill to keep everyone in line, let’s see how Gortat will be affected with the guys around him not tolerating his dumb plays. Goodluck Dudley!

  • 82 PennyAnd1 // Jul 24, 2012 at 1:10 pm

    Gortat has an IQ similar to that of Andray Blatche & Jamal McGee

  • 83 PennyAnd1 // Jul 24, 2012 at 1:20 pm

  • 84 Greg // Jul 24, 2012 at 1:24 pm

    im not in this conversation anymore…no one in the league gets triple teamed. and even if amare was double teamed, he wasnt on 208 of his dunks, so in your opinion every shot he missed must have been a double team? stats dont lie in this case. Gortat is not as bad as you keep saying and just admit it. if you arent willing to admit it, then this conversation is over from my end.

    btw, with all the 3 pt shooting the suns have had over the years, Amare actually didnt get doubled that often because teams had to maintain their defense on the perimeter….most of Amares scoring at the rim were uncontested dunks, or one on one matchups…and gortat was more efficient.

    just admit you are wrong.

  • 85 PennyAnd1 // Jul 24, 2012 at 3:13 pm

    btw, with Amare attracting a double- or triple-team, the Suns were able to hit more threes. stats don’t lie on that.

    you’ll see what I mean come game time. good luck with your defense.

  • 86 Greg // Jul 25, 2012 at 6:43 am

    lol when did i ever compare amare and gortat? you did! you created my argument in your argument, and all i did was point out some simple facts, and now you turned it into “my defense” haha. i never said Gortat has a higher IQ then Amare. I never said Gortat is better then Amare. I admitted already Gortat does make poor decisions and ill advised shots at times. i dont understand what you are looking for…..

    for me to say Gortat sucks? lol he doesnt and thats fact.

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