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	<title>Comments on: Reconciling Wins Produced with team chemistry</title>
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	<link>http://valleyofthesuns.com/2010/07/29/reconciling-wins-produced-chemistry/</link>
	<description>Phoenix Suns basketball blog. The hottest source in the Valley for Suns news, rumors and analysis with a fresh perspective from ESPN&#039;s TrueHoop affiliate.</description>
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		<title>By: duds</title>
		<link>http://valleyofthesuns.com/2010/07/29/reconciling-wins-produced-chemistry/comment-page-1/#comment-48855</link>
		<dc:creator>duds</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jul 2010 18:38:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://valleyofthesuns.com/?p=18716#comment-48855</guid>
		<description>I love how he immediately jumps to the &quot;well, you&#039;re just a bunch of idiots&quot; excuse.

I&#039;m pretty sure if you showed that list to the majority of people who work in the NBA, they wouldn&#039;t give it a second thought either.

Also, comparing team chemistry to fairy dust and astrology just shows an astonishing ignorance of how NBA teams work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I love how he immediately jumps to the &#8220;well, you&#8217;re just a bunch of idiots&#8221; excuse.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m pretty sure if you showed that list to the majority of people who work in the NBA, they wouldn&#8217;t give it a second thought either.</p>
<p>Also, comparing team chemistry to fairy dust and astrology just shows an astonishing ignorance of how NBA teams work.</p>
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		<title>By: suns68</title>
		<link>http://valleyofthesuns.com/2010/07/29/reconciling-wins-produced-chemistry/comment-page-1/#comment-48872</link>
		<dc:creator>suns68</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jul 2010 17:04:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://valleyofthesuns.com/?p=18716#comment-48872</guid>
		<description>I can&#039;t count the number of times executives have blown a decision because they relied on reality-defiant statistics of one form or another. 
When it turns into a disaster, they say one of two things: &quot;That&#039;s what the numbers said,&quot; or, &quot;Just think how bad off we&#039;d be if we hadn&#039;t done that.&quot; 
In this case, I don&#039;t think the problem is with the model. The problem is with the input data. 
Valid statistical outputs require measurable, repeatable events. 
Track and field has a lot of those. So track statistics are almost perfect. Baseball has fewer, but still a lot, so the statistics are pretty good. 
Basketball has hardly any because the sport is one of free-flowing interaction between multiple players at a time. 
A statistical method that misses an NBA team&#039;s win total by 14, and then explains it by saying some guys played better, is not a model on which I&#039;d want to build my franchise. 
Basketball talent evaluation is, and is likely to remain, more art than science. 
And to me, &quot;team chemistry&quot; is far from fairy dust or voodoo or whatever. It&#039;s simply a shorthand expression of the well-documented human psychological trait that a player will try harder the more he cares about letting his teammates down. 
At the level of the NBA, where everybody with a uniform is one of the 500 or so best basketball players on the planet, even tiny differences in motivation can be absolutely critical. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can&#039;t count the number of times executives have blown a decision because they relied on reality-defiant statistics of one form or another.</p>
<p>When it turns into a disaster, they say one of two things: &quot;That&#039;s what the numbers said,&quot; or, &quot;Just think how bad off we&#039;d be if we hadn&#039;t done that.&quot;</p>
<p>In this case, I don&#039;t think the problem is with the model. The problem is with the input data.</p>
<p>Valid statistical outputs require measurable, repeatable events.</p>
<p>Track and field has a lot of those. So track statistics are almost perfect. Baseball has fewer, but still a lot, so the statistics are pretty good.</p>
<p>Basketball has hardly any because the sport is one of free-flowing interaction between multiple players at a time.</p>
<p>A statistical method that misses an NBA team&#039;s win total by 14, and then explains it by saying some guys played better, is not a model on which I&#039;d want to build my franchise.</p>
<p>Basketball talent evaluation is, and is likely to remain, more art than science.</p>
<p>And to me, &quot;team chemistry&quot; is far from fairy dust or voodoo or whatever. It&#039;s simply a shorthand expression of the well-documented human psychological trait that a player will try harder the more he cares about letting his teammates down.</p>
<p>At the level of the NBA, where everybody with a uniform is one of the 500 or so best basketball players on the planet, even tiny differences in motivation can be absolutely critical. </p>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://valleyofthesuns.com/2010/07/29/reconciling-wins-produced-chemistry/comment-page-1/#comment-48843</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jul 2010 15:57:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://valleyofthesuns.com/?p=18716#comment-48843</guid>
		<description>I like how it&#039;s said &quot;without bias.&quot;  But who decides what weight to apply to each statistic?  And who decides what truly leads to winning? Someone has to develop the model, and no matter what, any model of this nature will contain some amount of subjective decision-making.  Advanced statistics are not as simple as crunching numbers.  

I think it&#039;s pretty distasteful how Berri likes to take shots at Hollinger (the guy whose system every GM in the NBA uses to analyze players).  Hollinger&#039;s system isn&#039;t perfect, but it&#039;s not totally wrong either.  And like I said, everyone uses PER among other statistical methods.  But the fact that PER is there means it works (at least in the minds of those who matter and are making the decisions).  

No statistical model will ever be perfect because statistical models of this nature are simply attempts to explain observations.  Some things are inexplicable.  Are defense, rebounding, points, steals, blocks, etc the only way to track games?  Do the guys on the bench matter, even when they&#039;re on the bench?  How about practice methods or the practice squad?  How about trainers?  What about the crowd?  People are products of their complete environment, and no statistical model will ever account for the entirety of the universe, they simply strive to explain a pool of data under hand-picked parameters.  Unbiased?

If it&#039;s 94% accurate, then it&#039;s 6% inaccurate and thus not truly &quot;right?&quot;  I like this model a lot, but it&#039;s not the best one I&#039;ve seen.  It can be used in conjunction with other models and it&#039;s a useful tool, but this is not the be-all-end-all of advanced basketball stats.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like how it&#8217;s said &#8220;without bias.&#8221;  But who decides what weight to apply to each statistic?  And who decides what truly leads to winning? Someone has to develop the model, and no matter what, any model of this nature will contain some amount of subjective decision-making.  Advanced statistics are not as simple as crunching numbers.  </p>
<p>I think it&#8217;s pretty distasteful how Berri likes to take shots at Hollinger (the guy whose system every GM in the NBA uses to analyze players).  Hollinger&#8217;s system isn&#8217;t perfect, but it&#8217;s not totally wrong either.  And like I said, everyone uses PER among other statistical methods.  But the fact that PER is there means it works (at least in the minds of those who matter and are making the decisions).  </p>
<p>No statistical model will ever be perfect because statistical models of this nature are simply attempts to explain observations.  Some things are inexplicable.  Are defense, rebounding, points, steals, blocks, etc the only way to track games?  Do the guys on the bench matter, even when they&#8217;re on the bench?  How about practice methods or the practice squad?  How about trainers?  What about the crowd?  People are products of their complete environment, and no statistical model will ever account for the entirety of the universe, they simply strive to explain a pool of data under hand-picked parameters.  Unbiased?</p>
<p>If it&#8217;s 94% accurate, then it&#8217;s 6% inaccurate and thus not truly &#8220;right?&#8221;  I like this model a lot, but it&#8217;s not the best one I&#8217;ve seen.  It can be used in conjunction with other models and it&#8217;s a useful tool, but this is not the be-all-end-all of advanced basketball stats.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan</title>
		<link>http://valleyofthesuns.com/2010/07/29/reconciling-wins-produced-chemistry/comment-page-1/#comment-48869</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jul 2010 15:49:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://valleyofthesuns.com/?p=18716#comment-48869</guid>
		<description>While I think advanced statistical models are best for evaluating player performance, I find Win&#039;s Produced to be inferior to other measures like Win Shares and Statistical Plus Minus. While I admit to lacking the knowledge of the specific formulas used in Berri&#039;s win shares, I remember Neil Paine (who presumably does) pointing out that Berri overrates low usage, high efficiency players and high percentage defensive rebounders. Stats like Win Shares, Statistical Plus Minus, and Adjusted Plus Minus (when viewed in context) show a more complete picture of how an individual player performs and how different lineups perform together. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While I think advanced statistical models are best for evaluating player performance, I find Win&#039;s Produced to be inferior to other measures like Win Shares and Statistical Plus Minus. While I admit to lacking the knowledge of the specific formulas used in Berri&#039;s win shares, I remember Neil Paine (who presumably does) pointing out that Berri overrates low usage, high efficiency players and high percentage defensive rebounders. Stats like Win Shares, Statistical Plus Minus, and Adjusted Plus Minus (when viewed in context) show a more complete picture of how an individual player performs and how different lineups perform together. </p>
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		<title>By: Mike L</title>
		<link>http://valleyofthesuns.com/2010/07/29/reconciling-wins-produced-chemistry/comment-page-1/#comment-48831</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike L</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jul 2010 06:32:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://valleyofthesuns.com/?p=18716#comment-48831</guid>
		<description>Yep I agree. I have to say I&#039;m disappointed that Berri took the &quot;if you don&#039;t agree with me you&#039;re either not thinking or you believe in UFO&#039;s&quot; route. Perhaps I can place more credence in what he&#039;s saying because of injuries. But when I read his reaction I get the distinct impression that he came up with the formula after pouring over stats and likely without watching a single game. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yep I agree. I have to say I&#039;m disappointed that Berri took the &quot;if you don&#039;t agree with me you&#039;re either not thinking or you believe in UFO&#039;s&quot; route. Perhaps I can place more credence in what he&#039;s saying because of injuries. But when I read his reaction I get the distinct impression that he came up with the formula after pouring over stats and likely without watching a single game. </p>
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		<title>By: Zak</title>
		<link>http://valleyofthesuns.com/2010/07/29/reconciling-wins-produced-chemistry/comment-page-1/#comment-48818</link>
		<dc:creator>Zak</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jul 2010 01:45:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://valleyofthesuns.com/?p=18716#comment-48818</guid>
		<description>Well said.  While stats are a very important predictor, you just can&#039;t ignore the intangibles like team chemistry.  Pure talent will take a player or a team a long way but a lot of times it&#039;s pure heart/guts/determination/chemistry/etc. that is the difference between a win and a loss. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well said.  While stats are a very important predictor, you just can&#039;t ignore the intangibles like team chemistry.  Pure talent will take a player or a team a long way but a lot of times it&#039;s pure heart/guts/determination/chemistry/etc. that is the difference between a win and a loss. </p>
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